to not want to be defined by my marital status or surname?

[tealight]

To be not at all surprised that women still strive to achieve equality when some/many/most (???)women in marriage take on men?s surnames and (in marriage or not) agree to their children taking the man?s surname? That is the way it used to be when women and children were literally, in the eyes of the law, men?s property. That is the basis o the tradition for fathers to give their daughters away. And why should my marital status be used to define me every time I fill out my personal details? Miss, Mrs, Ms? Men just have Mr. Yet many of us still subscribe to this. Why why why?????

i.e. I don't judge people based on what others say about them or myself based on what others say about me.

Thinking that objecting to a woman being called a "weather girl" while her male colleague is referred to as "weather man" is Political Correctness going "mad" does in fact make me sad. What about when it's you? I'm always amazed at women who claim never to have ever come up against intrinsic sexism - have you never found yourself automatically making the tea in a meeting because that's what is expected of you as the woman in the room; or suspected you're being paid less than your male colleague? Or perhaps worked in a division that is mostly staffed by women and yet has male managers?

If not, you are lucky, and that's what the rest of us aspire to. But you surely can't deny that it does happen and that using child-like terms for women just perpetuates this kind of thinking?

curiositykilled, when you were growing up and watched cartoons did you wonder why every hero except She Ra was male?

I never said it was political correctness going mad. I explained why I disliked it. I don't like the restriction of language.

No-one can make me do anything I don't want. If I didn't want to make tea I wouldn't. I was never paid less than a male colleague, I would not accept that unless the male colleague had earned his extra wage through longevity.

Someone else expecting you to make tea, accept a lower wage or call you a child-like term you don't identify with does not perpetuate this kind of thinking unless individuals allow it and use it to define themselves.

ninagleams - a. I didn't really watch many cartoons, b. there were more heroines than just SheRa, c. I thought I was a boy. What's your point here?

I notice also that Sian LLoyd refers to herself as a 'weathergirl' despite some people calling her a 'weather presenter'. You argument would be she has been oppressed by a patriarchal society so that she feels unable to choose or unaware of the choice would it? Perhaps you would be right. Perhaps she just wants to be called a 'weathergirl'. Who knows.

Okay, you "dislike" it. But why? Why do you think it's okay for a woman to be referred to as a girl?

Sian Lloyd used to go out with Lembit Opik so I'm not sure, tbh, that her judgment is always flawless.

Curiosity, am interested to hear you don't think you've ever been paid less than a male colleague - have all the firms where you've worked been completely open about salaries and carried out equal pay audits?

oh dear should have been a after the Lembit Opik comment...

Am intrigued at the level of offense taken by many (though not all) name changers here. Plenty of fairly stiff things have been said about name-keepers being trivial, strident, baton-wielding sugjugators and yet none of us appear to have gone all handbags about it. What with it being a discussion and all.

Try saying "I disagree with you profoundly and feel that your opinion in this matter is misguided and foolish with regard to my own choices". See? whatever view you have this sort of talk is bound to raise the hackles. Inevitable when opinions are quite polarised.

Obviously, too, any decision to change a name is not going to single-handedly set back the progress of human suffrage and equality. However maybe it is a matter of each time a person chooses not to do this conventional thing being seen as something positive by many name-keepers? Me anyway. I'm with Seeker.

Yikes that last para was garbled. Apologies. But you get my meaning?

I've only worked for small companies and have known what my contemporaries were paid, I have also done the payroll for various places I've worked. Why do I have to justify myself? I don't see why a woman can't call herself a girl if she chooses. I dislike it because I dislike language being restricted. If I want to call myself a 'bargirl' say, why should you get to tell me I'm only allowed to call myself 'barstaff'.

I think what was being referred to were job advertisements wasn't it? Where 'barstaff' seems the perfect way to encompass the noble object of hiring the right person regardless of gender.

And so far absolutely everyone seems to have been very very keen to make it very very clear that they are 100% behind people being hired based on their abilities and suitability for the job.

Even the traditionnargument is satisfied as women have been serving drinks in public bars for a very long time.

So that's all right then.

It wasn't anything to do with job advertisements. It was about the use of certain terms perpetuating gender inequality.

As far as I can gather some people are of the belief that women shouldn't be able to call themselves certain terms because it is perpetuating gender inequality. Or that being called a term they would find demeaning means that person either hasn't thought about the term's use enough or that they have been denied a choice.

LovelyKay, you make excellent points

The oppressed don't know it, otherwise the whole system would collapse

Don't want to get all Marxist before 5pm though, so will bow out

A woman can call herself a girl if she chooses, curiosity. In certain contexts it may be ok but in most (particularly in the professional context) it would be very strange indeed to do so. A woman is not a girl. You are calling yourself a child? Why would you do that?

I too believe in freedom of speech but there does come a point when you need to realise the implications of the language that you use and perhaps the reasons why you do so. Presumably you would not call a black person an offensive name, for example. Similarly, you should not call a woman a small child. I agree that if someone calls me a "girl" they are not defining me but they are implying things about me that are not acceptable. They are also showing an inherent prejudice sub-conscious or not.

Also, I think you misunderstood the examples I gave earlier. Of course people will say that your DS is a lovely boy - that is presumably because he is a boy. The examples were in reference to adults which is what we are talking about here - in my (anecdotal) experience people are more likely to talk about an individual woman as a "girl" than they are an individual man as a "boy".

I'm not calling myself anything on this thread. Sian Lloyd was an example given and she calls herself a 'weathergirl' ask her why. It might be because she's never thought about it, because she prefers it, because other people call her that, because she wants to feel young... any reason... who knows..

I am not calling anyone anything. I am not using any language to describe any other person. I merely dislike language being restricted. I want the right to use language to describe people and things and for other people to have the right to use language to describe poeple and things.

Why can Sian Lloyd not call herself a weathergirl in a professional capacity if she chooses? I am not calling her anything. Other people referred to her as a weather presenter where she referred to herself as weathergirl. If you feel uncomfortable with someone calling you something just correct them. Why do we have to restrict choice or language for everybody?

If Sian calls herself a weathergirl I suspect that is because she has grown up in a misogynistic society and doesn't know better. She shouldn't do so because she is in the public eye and should be a better role model for women.

I'm not trying to restrict choice or language for anybody - except in very particular circumstances it's not actually possible to do that.

What I am trying to do is raise people's consciousness about why they use certain words and the impact and meaning of doing so. For the reasons I said earlier calling a woman a child's name is a strange thing to do. It is also demeaning and reflects inherent prejudices in our society.

yes, that is how you feel about it.

and you are trying to restrict choice by saying sian shouldn't call herself a weathergirl.

"I'm not trying to restrict choice or language for anybody"

Er, yes you are. When you say Sian Lloyd shouldn't call herself a weaathergirl even if she wants to.

Er, noooo ... I can't stop Sian calling herself a weathergirl. I am expressing my opinion that she shouldn't do so ...

you are saying she should be restricted in her choice of language.

Personally, I think people can call themselves whatever they damn well like.

Reading this and the maternity leave thread made me think of an interesting question actually: Will men and women ever be equal in the workplace whilst women can take up to a year off on maternity leave (or until men do)

Probably better on its own thread.

Anyway, I couldn't make my mind up about it.

Dragon, I'm sorry but I cannot express myself any more clearly than I already have. My posts are clear.

I am not saying she should be restricted in her choice of language - there is no way for me or anyone else to do that. I am saying that her choice of language is poor.

People can call themselves whatever they like but I won't call them children when they are adults.