to not want to be defined by my marital status or surname?

[tealight]

To be not at all surprised that women still strive to achieve equality when some/many/most (???)women in marriage take on men?s surnames and (in marriage or not) agree to their children taking the man?s surname? That is the way it used to be when women and children were literally, in the eyes of the law, men?s property. That is the basis o the tradition for fathers to give their daughters away. And why should my marital status be used to define me every time I fill out my personal details? Miss, Mrs, Ms? Men just have Mr. Yet many of us still subscribe to this. Why why why?????

seeker - you have implied several times that you believe, if you want to take your husband's name the reality of your choice is 1. subjugation by men by taking your husband's name or 2. Subjugation by radical feminism by not taking your husband's name. IMO that's a fairly radical feminist 'baton' I'm being beaten with.

I agree with those who think this is a trivial discussion. In the Orient (at least in my parents' part of the Orient), women keep their maiden names even after marriage. I would never call the Orient an example of egalitarianism.

My mother found it strange to be Mrs. Mydad when she moved, as did her friends,but found that moving to the States also afforded her so many freedoms which weren't given to her back in her native country.

My husband is one of the nutters who actually wanted to take MY name when we got married. I dissuaded him from doing this, but we agreed to take a joint hyphenated name and our kids have the same. I like it that we, as a family unit, have the same name. This works for us, butI certainly don't think twice about other people's choices on their names.

I think that the important thing to have is choice on what we want to do with our names, and an public acceptance (without judgement) of our decisions.

can I also point out that your surname is not yours, in the sense it came from your dad. Does this make you your dad's property, then, rather than an individual? I think not

I was under the impression that the feminist baton wielders of old fought to give us choice not to force an opinion/course of action upon us.

needanewname - who has called you an idiot? It seems that while you're bleating on about imagined slights you are getting awfully hot and bothered by the feminist arguments against name changing, even to the extent of telling an OP to fuck off. That poster was lamenting the fact that despite having escaped many patriarchal controls thanks to feminism, some women are using their hard-won near-equality to defend archaic practices. It is sad.

Brokenhearted - Does being allowed to do 'nearly anything a man can' satisfy you?! No wonder you describe moderate and widely-held opinions about naming as 'extremist'

But still no one has explained how changing your name seems to wipe out equality. It was my choice to change me name. IUt seems as good as name as any, but it could just have well of been Smith.

I'm sorry that I offended you earlier and maybe it wasn;t you in particular seeker that implied that name changers are idiots, however that is what has been said on here along with how can an intelligent, feisty, right on woman take her husbands name? I find that hugely offensive.

I have no problem with anyone keeping or changing their name or title, so why should anyone have a problem with me changing mine?

I peronally don;t see how anyone can find a title of Miss or Mrs and invasion of their privacy but don't have a go at you for it, you choose to be known as Ms or not use a title at all - absolutley fine. At no point have I had a go at anyone saying they are wrong for calling themselves whatever they want

Curiosity - unless I am completely mistaken Seeker is applying her definition to all name changers with the following -
"So every time a woman subsumes her identity into that of a man, or automatically gives her child it's father's name, or accepts that "he" is the appropriate generic for "people", we are taking a miniscule step away from true equality. This may sound extreme, but I believe it to be true. " I don;t accept that by taking DH name I am taking a step away from equality.

"Women can do nearly everything a man can."

Wouldn't you rather it was "everything" not "nearly everything"?

"I worry where women will take us." Where do you think you will be taken?

To say women should be able to do "everything" a man does ignores the fact that there are differences between the sexes. The reality is that the majority of women would struggle to keep up in a hefty manual job.

ermintrude - YES TOTALLY. I have no desire to be able to do everything a man can do. Thing is, i have never come across anything i am not allowed to do because i am a women.

I know my place as a women (and i dont mean in the kitchen!!) and i am satisfied with that.

IMO the most important thing in a person's ability to freely define themselves, male or female, is their upbringing. My parents have both always encouraged all of us to define ourselves in whatever way we choose. Society offers stereotypes and descriptions of who they think we should be in various ways which impinge on us to various degrees but we are all confident in who we are and what we want. We all feel free. I don't think that's a co-incidence.

My bro can be a SAHD if he wants, my sis can be a doctor. I think at points in history these things would have been less possible but they are much easier now. We have less defined roles for both genders now, this has brought advantages and disadvantages for both sexes. Society is more geared to individuals than gender roles than it has ever been. But why is making use of our ability to choose our lives and titles as women making us unequal to our male counterparts? I really can't understand this way of thinking. As individuals we should all make use of any and all of our freedoms to choose, wherever we can. I'm not sure how this argument advances us as people in any way.

We aren't the same as men and they're not the same as us. That's not to say there aren't a large number of things both can do equally well and a lot of these things are still male dominated but I do think we need to accept (and embrace) the fact that we are different.

I personally would not rather it was everything. Women and men are different, not the same. Men certainly can't do everything a woman can. The flaw with old style feminism is this argument that women and men are the same - no we are different, but equal, and those differences should be respected and celebrated.

Seeker - i feel that you are taking womens rights to mean that a woman must be the same as a man. Why? Isn't that, in itself, a blow for feminism? Women are different from men and, to me, equality means, giving men and women equal respect to do what they want to do. That may mean, for some, taking their husband's name. For others, it may not. For some, their DH may yake their name. The fact that the choice is there is, in effect, a victory for equal rights. We can chose and our choice is up to us.

ADragon - That is an argument i often use. We are totally different. Let me be a women!

My point is because i have never come across anything i cant do, what is it that you are getting so caught up on that we need to take on the baton?

Ermintrude I dodn't tell the OP to fuck off, I told another poster int he nicest possible way fuck off.

If you read through all the posts you will see quite a few instances where it has been implied that people who change their name are idiots and have gone from being feisty, right on intelligen women to be the little lady, and that we are someone how taking away what has been done in the name of feminism and womens rights by doing so - what a load of shit! Yes I am getting all hot under the collar about the nonsense being spouted on here. I'm not defending archaic practices, I'm defind choice - how much clearer do I need to be?

Seeker - I know for a fact I can't do everything a man can do and why the hell would I want to. I'm built differently to a man, there are things that I can do that a man can't (give birth for instance) do you see men bleating on about that?

Why should we all do the same things, we should all have the same opportunites - vote, work, travel, have fun, choose a profession - and we shoudl all be paid the same for that profession. Women are now able to do traditionally male jobs - can we say the same for men - there is still suspicion if a man wants to work in childcare or decides to be a SAHD.

We should also be free to choose our own name and title without getting an ear bashing.

Of course men and women are different, who pretends otherwise? . But while it is neither possible nor desirable to make the sexes identical, we certainly haven't recognised them as equal in terms of pay, status or power. Defining a woman by her marital status and her husband's name are signifiers of this continued inequality. Duh!

women can be defined by their marital status without changing their name - if I had not changed my name, some people would still define me as the.....wife. Thus, yes, I agree that these issues exist, I don't agree that it is down to a name, but rather down to individuals who still purport these ideas. That is the crux of the problem. Keeping your own name may make it less obvious but it won't stop those who have certain views, defining you by your husband.

Are you suggesting that the option of choosing to take dh name should be banned? Is that your idea of 'equal rights'?

Men tend to be better at power, status etc. Not all, but as a generalisation.

HOW? How is defining a women by her maritial status and husbands name signifiers of this continued inequality?! Maybe that is an insecurity in you but I dont have such an insecurity about it.

The younger people dont see such a difference in womens equality that the (cough cough) 'older' folk do. It will always be there to some extent but is for the most part being grown out. (so to speak)

I am bowing sadly out. I think that the words we use are important, and define our society. For example, using "he" to mean "a person". The fact that a woman is regularly defined by her marital status and a man never is. The fact that a "good" girl is a quiet compliant one. The fact that adult women are regularly still called "girls". I could go on, but I won't - these ideas are obviously too radically feminist for the others involved on this thread.

All I can say is that if someone had told me in 1979 that in 2009 I would be told to fuck of by another woman for suggesting that taking a man's name and identifying oneself by one's marital status may not be the most emancipated thing to do, I wouldn't have believed it.

Statistically there are significant (but "total"? Really?) differences between men and women. You will get some who argue that those are entirely, or almost entirely, socially constructed, but personally I'm happy enough with that as a proposition.

But there's plenty of overlap, and plenty of women who think and behave more like an "average" man than an "average" woman, just as there are plenty of men who think and behave more like an "average" woman than an "average" man on any scale you care to mention other than pregnancy/birth or "what do his/her genitalia look like"?

The majority of women would struggle to keep up in a hefty manual job. But is that a reason for keeping those who wouldn't struggle out of that field? (And vice versa with men who would enjoy and do well at female-dominated professions). On a tangent, you'll notice that female-dominated professions tend to be lower-paid than male-dominated professions.

You want the freedom to be (what you consider to be) a woman. Great. But other women want the freedom to be and do other stuff that they are good at without being told that (a) they can't do it, because most women wouldn't be able to and the fact that they themselves are perfectly able to is hence irrelevant or (b) it makes them less of a woman.

NeedaNewName, why do you need people you disagree with to think you're right on. Of course you can still be feisty and intelligent but a real radical feminist wouldn't say you were right on because you opted for personal choice. That's how political movements work and feminism is one.

curiositykilled, you're still putting words in my mouth. I've never said that the choice should be revoked, I just don't think that choice is particularly free or real and as I said to Bling earlier it will be a positive sign when the proportions level out a little more.

stillstanding, I was just curious about where you drew the line between pointless and small! Thanks for responding.

how is a man never defined by marital status? Men are sometimes advanced in their jobs once they marry over single men and vice versa. My husband is often referred to by my friends and aquaintances as my husband and when we fill in forms, we BOTH have to write whether we are married or single.

Thats the thing though. You are tryin got suggest how other women should behave and think/feels about themselves.

I feel more put down by people with your feminist views than by all men.

You make me out to be a doormat/property of my husband by what i chose to do/not do. No man had done that to me!

thats was a responce to seeker btw