to not want to be defined by my marital status or surname?

[tealight]

To be not at all surprised that women still strive to achieve equality when some/many/most (???)women in marriage take on men?s surnames and (in marriage or not) agree to their children taking the man?s surname? That is the way it used to be when women and children were literally, in the eyes of the law, men?s property. That is the basis o the tradition for fathers to give their daughters away. And why should my marital status be used to define me every time I fill out my personal details? Miss, Mrs, Ms? Men just have Mr. Yet many of us still subscribe to this. Why why why?????

needanewname - calm down, that's just seeker's feelings about what changing your name means. She might be appearing to apply it to all name changers but it is really only a reflection of her views and defines her rather than you.

She can say it all she likes and it shouldn't affect you at all. I don't think you should resort to telling her to fuck off. I find that a little offensive and feel you should maybe apologise.

Anyway, applying her definitions of someone's marital status and name choices to others is doing exactly what the OP is bewailing and renders the original argument worthless.

I am on the name changer side i am afraid. I only read first and last page btw.

About being your husbands property- this IS how i see myself. I AM his. Likewise he IS mine. No one elses. That doesn't mean that i stop being 'me'. I still have my own mind etc etc but i try to make him happy and consider how he feels about things and expect him to do the same for me. That is marriage. Legally i am his and i love that. I HATE how people then imply that i must be a doormat. Not at all. We both have our own places in the marriage.

About being reffered to as Miss Mrs etc. It is important to me. I am proud to be his wife and want the whole world to know it. It does make a difference because of legal things, because of social things. For example it makes a difference when filling out forms because if anything happened to me i am his legal responsibility if you like. Socially it matters because i want men to know that no other will have me and that it is inappropriate for me to flirt along side my friends. I am sure this isnt the argument though, just wanted to say it

I took his surname because we are not Mrs X and Mr Y - we are one, the same Mr and Mrs Y. I took his rather than he take mine because it is tradition that the wife take the husbands but i would have been happy doing it the other way around. As long as we have the same surname i am happy because we are one family - not a bunch of gathered indviduals.

You could just write "To The Occupant" on the Christmas cards. Then you wouldn't have the bore of trying to remember their DH's name either, and after all it doesn't matter what you write because they are still who they are whatever you write.

I haven't read every post, but here are my thoughts, for what they're worth. I didn't change my name when we got married, but slightly regret that now we have children as I would quite like all four of us to have the same name. But I definitely don't want to change now, as it would seem like a public declaration: "I am now a mum, so have lost my own identity."

Thing is, though, I think it all starts seeming a bit futile and meaningless when I reflect that "my" name is in fact my father's.

"As long as we have the same surname i am happy because we are one family - not a bunch of gathered indviduals."

Is that really how you perceive a family who have different names - 'a group of gathered individuals"?

I appreciate that women fought for our rights to vote etc etc, but i think women nowadays are taking it all to far. Women and men are totally different. Why do women want to be the same as men. Most of the time, legally, we are equal. Thats enough for me. I want to be appreciated as a women. I have no desire to take the role of a man. I am a WIFE - MRS. What is the point in women marrying their men when they dont actually want to be a wife? Also, men do have an unmarried title - Master - it has just been slowly dropped in our society, but it is there is men wish to use it.

Seeker - No, but when a women does it to MAKE A POINT that she is an indivdual, not property of her man, blah blah blah, then yes. A family unit, but not 'one' as I belive husband and wife should be. - that is a generalisation though i appreciate that.

Oh dear, BrokkenHarted - what era do you live in?

"What is the point in women marrying their men when they dont actually want to be a wife?" - oh no, for the last however-many years I have not been a wife. How could I not notice? And all because of my surname!!!! What a shock!

Well, I don't want to be 'one" - I am a person in my own right and so is he! Do you discount our 27 years together because of my desire to remain an individual?

I didnt mean it like that Metella. I am not saying that you and people that make the same choice as you aren't wives, espescially not JUST because of a surname. I just think that 'changing our surnames is symbolic/ undoing what the feminists before us have done' is plain barmey. I don't agree with extreme feminism.

As to the era - i am most likely far younger than you (I am younger than everyone on here it seems ) and my opinion is not uncommon amongst women of my age group. I am not the only women totally distraught with being reffered to as a 'doormat' because of how i view womens roles and mens roles.

that was NOT a dig at age

I don't discount anything Seeker. If you dont that is fine but i don't like being told by other women that i am doing any undoing or being a doormat because of how i view my role as a women. I am totally secure with it. Not every women in this world is so strong headed as yourself or has any desire to be. I want to be one with my husband, we will strive for it. I still make decisions and my hubby knows how i feel about diffeent issues and respects that and vise versa. He does not tell me who to be or how to act and vise versa.

No, men have a juvenile title - Master. It's never been an "unmarried" title. They drop the juvenile title somewhere around the point they attain adulthood.

Women have a juvenile title - Miss -- that doubles as an "unmarried" title. Until "Ms" came along they didn't get to drop the juvenile title at all unless they married.

I switched from Miss to Ms around the point I became an adult, just as my brothers (from whom I am not, last time I checked, "totally different") switched from Master to Mr at about the same age. This doesn't seem like "extreme" feminism to me.

It is annoying that Miss and Mrs denote marital status when men do not have to do this. It feels like an invasion of privacy sometimes and I think it needs to change.

I don't see a problem with women wanting to change their names though. I am not defined by my name, and I don't see any reason get uptight about other people's choices to change their name on marriage or not.

Dotty2 - just a thought re you saying you slightly regret not changing your name but not wanting to make a public declaration re 'I'm a mum, i've lost my identity' (that made me laugh, sometimes it feels true whatever your name!), not wanting to belittle the name change process but do you think anyone would really notice? As i said a few posts earlier i've just changed my name 7 years on as my passport came up for renewal and i decided (mainly so as to have same name as my children) to renew it in my married name. I'm not making any public declaration!! i doubt anyone will notice. i can still use my maiden name wherever / whenever i want to - i'm not actually working at the mo as DC3 still little, but if i was there would be nothing to stop me there, i still have some investments / business etc in my maiden name which i doubt i will change - i just have to be able to prove i am who i am when i come to sell. Many family and friends have called me Mrs DH for years no one bothered to check whether i'd actually changed my name.

I'm sure you are younger than me, BrokkenHarted - you definitely sound younger as you seem to have a very romantic, idealised view of the world.

No doubt your view is not uncommon amongst other women in your group - naturally people gravitate to others with similar views. It does sound very old-fashioned to my ears though! But I'm an old hag who has seen first-hand how attitudes to women (particularly in the workplace) are influenced by the language used and the cultural norms followed by a majority.

From the posts on here most women change their names without thinking about it and that is what I find odd. If a woman considers all her options and makes up her own mind to change her name or not change her name then that's good. Not even thinking about it is a bit more worrying!

It is annoying that Miss and Mrs denote marital status when men do not have to do this. It feels like an invasion of privacy sometimes and I think it needs to change. If it is important to know the marital status, this is usually a separate question on forms anyway.

I don't see a problem with women wanting to change their names though. I am not defined by my name, and I don't see any reason to concern myself about what others call themselves.

"As to the era - i am most likely far younger than you (I am younger than everyone on here it seems blush) and my opinion is not uncommon amongst women of my age group. I am not the only women totally distraught with being reffered to as a 'doormat' because of how i view womens roles and mens roles."

I don't want to sound patronizing - although I know I will - but I do think this kind of makes my point. A lot (not all, of course) of young women really don't seem to see that the equality they enjoy today was hard won by women of earlier generations. It is very depressing to realize that the baton is not going to be handed on.

Metella - It is actually my faith, not having a romantic idea about the world - I know how hard things are.I also said this is what we STRIVE for. I have no illusions about how hard it is to truely achieve. The people around me who i am thinking of, i have not graviated towards. They actually are totally different to me in most ways but not this.

I totally agree it should be thought about. I chose to take my husbands name.

Old fashioned? Maybe. I dont think that being old fashioned makes it wrong though.

If the 'baton' is one of subjugation to radical feminist ideals that I have chosen to an even lesser extent than I have chosen my marital status then you can keep the 'baton' thanx.

True gender equality means equality of men and women. It has nothing to do with various types of subjugation or oppressions. Frankly I'm feeling a more oppressive attitude from some of the radical feminists than anywhere else! But then I suspect you would call that progress towards gender equality...

Using the 'baton' to beat people with won't make people likely to want to carry it either...

You did not read my earlier post Seeker. I said i appreciate what they did. I am thankful. When it comes to taking a surname though it think it is all a bit ridiculous.

I will not be the one grabbing the baton though. I like it where it is. I worry where women will take us. Why should all of us have to be dragged along with those who are not content?

What 'radical feminist ideas' are you being subjected to? I am a little puzzled!

Brokkenhearted - you are obviously guided by your religion in the way you pervieve your role as a wife. This is, of course, your choice, but I don't think your experience related to the average woman in this country.

i changed my name when married because I a) bloody hated my maiden name - real bugger to spell but also because b) I wanted to sugnify a new stage in my life, one where I was now in partnership in many different ways with my dh. I was young when I got married (though not so anymore!!) but this hasn't changed. Also, keeping my dad's name would have felt wrong as i have not emotional connection with him - I feel much more connected to DH

I do, however, detest being referred to as 'such and such's wife' - I am me, call me by my name. I have a friend who constantly refers to his his as 'my wife' rather than by her name, which is really irritating. DH has a job whereby i am frequently referred to in relation to his job - oh, that's the....wife. i bloody hate that!

Seeker - I am sorry if you think the baton is not going to be passed on. I disagree and ni feel, as do others I know, that one can combine fighting for women's rights with also accepting that they are wives and mothers too - in fact that enhances who we are and we should be acknowledging that.

I am incredibly saddened when I hear about politictians, for instance, going back to work a few days after a CS, claiming it is a victory for feminism. It is not because it serves to suggest women have to be the same as men instead of acknowledging that women have needs and rights which may be different to men but no less important.

Taking DH name , to me, does not detract from the fact that I am an independant woman yet it demonstrates a part of who I am - namely in a loving, commited relationship with someone.

seeker - average? no. I don't think that yours is either though. I think most women are prob happy the way things are now. Women can do nearly everything a man can. We are happy with that. And the voice of an extremist feminist feels like a baton beating

I changed my name and I'm still an individual. I resent the implication that I am not and that I am a doormat for changing my name and find it offensive.

I don't give a stuff whether you (plural) changed your name upon marriage or are not married at all. People tell me what they're called and that's the end of it, it's just a name.