to not want to be defined by my marital status or surname?

[tealight]

To be not at all surprised that women still strive to achieve equality when some/many/most (???)women in marriage take on men?s surnames and (in marriage or not) agree to their children taking the man?s surname? That is the way it used to be when women and children were literally, in the eyes of the law, men?s property. That is the basis o the tradition for fathers to give their daughters away. And why should my marital status be used to define me every time I fill out my personal details? Miss, Mrs, Ms? Men just have Mr. Yet many of us still subscribe to this. Why why why?????

I think it's a bit of a left over from the days when people expected to be addressed more formally. I have always worked in an environment where firstname surname is used for formal occasions (minutes etc) and first names only for everything else. It always surprises me to be called Mrs surname to be honest. But some worlds are more formal.

However I remember asking my mother if she wasn't offended to be addressed as Mrs my father's name and surname, and she looked at me very oddly. I woudl absolutely hate that and might be inclined to return to sender. So perhaps things have already changed and will continue to do so. Certainly where I have worked when women have got married it's always been a question as to whether they changed their name or not, so the assumption that that is normal has slipped somewhat. I've also worked with two men who have changed their names to fit their new wives, and beyond a bit of banter it hasn't been a problem.

"professorlayton That is my point exactly. People refer to me by a variety of names depending on what is relevant to them all the time - DS/DD's mum, DF/DM's daughter, DGM's grandaughter, DH's wife, Miss x, Mrs y... None of it offends me, none of it makes me feel 'defined' it only reflects how that person knows me, what they think about me or the reason they are talking to me all reflections on them and not me"

Interesting. I am prepared to bet that your OH/DP/DH is almost always referred to as Mr Smith or John. (ow whatever his name is).

It's only women who are defined by other's perceptions of them.

My dh is known as ds/dd's dad or my husband, when not by his own name, as his job is looking after the children, so most of their friends know him well, and most of our friends are originally mine (we moved countries and I am the one that works, hence have more contacts than he does). In the UK I'd say that we were about even on the ds/dd's mum/dad, and our social circles didn't really mix. Outside of social circles it's not really relevant - not many things require both of us, or care about our relationship. I can't remember the last time that dh was called "Mr lastname".

I can see your point and I did even did get worked up as you do and wanted to keep my name until we actually got married and I'd decided that no, actually I wanted to take my husband's name because I love him and it's nice to have the same name.
Having said that it's a faff to change and 3 years on and my maiden name is still on my bank accounts and on my passport, which makes it really complicated (booking flights etc where your name has to match the seat name for example). I'm hoping to find the time to change it all to the same (my husband's name) by the end of the year.

I kinda think when you make a point about this then you are the one who makes the title define you really. People filling forms for you are just filling in the form, sorry to break it to you but they don't actually care about you, you know .
You can do what you like and name yourself what you like, you do have a choice and for official documents fair enough you want them to be correct.

If someone replied to one of my christmas cards explaining I should not address it to "Mr and Mrs x" but to "Ms x and Mr y" instead I'd think they were a little too self-involved and probably cross them off my list as the card is really not meant to upset them and I truly don't have the time to double check.

When a relative takes the time to write a card for you I think you should see the positive side that they thought about you really, not be offended.
People will assume if you are married you have the same name. Only close friends who know this matter is close to your heart will bother making sure they address it properly.
People (even ils) get my christian name wrong all the time, we've been together 11 years now. It's not a complicated name and it did use to wind me up but I got over it, there are more important things to worry about.
Having said that I insist people I work with get my name right.

"I don't know what a feminist is - all I know is that it is what people call me when I express opinions that differentiate me from a doormat" Rebecca West.

seeker - Everybody is described by other people in the way that they know them. Of ourse my DH is called a variety of different names. XP is even called 'curiositykilled's XP' on occasion.

My DH is referred to as DM/F/G's son/grandson, DS/D's dad, DS/D's step-dad, DW's husband, quite frequently as 'Mr curiositykilled', sometimes 'Mr curiositykilled's XP's surname' or curiositykilled's parent's SIL or his job description, status as home owner, status as car driver. In fact he feels the more things he is to people the more descriptions are available to people. He raised the point that men are often described by their work and socio-sconomic status as well as their marital status.

None of these things annoy him either. They are descriptions of the element of you that someone knows. They are not attempts to define you as a person and we both feel it is a little paranoid to assume that people are attempting to define you by say sending a letter to 'Mr and Mrs XP's surname' from DS's school rather than 'parents or carers of DS'.

Obviously there are occasionally people who try to use these names to define you deliberately but it is strange and naive to assume it only happens to women or that it affects your definition of yourself. It might teach you something about them i.e. that they are rude but it tells you nothing about yourself.

We both feel, rather similarly, that the only inequality is that women are given a choice where men are not about prefixes and name changing on marriage. Perhaps the whole issue would be more equal if men were given equal opportunity to change their prefix and their name to display their married status publicly.

ninagleams, it occurred to me this morning that you were asking me for examples of small things that matter rather than small things that don't matter ... Is that right?

I still don't understand the relevance of your question to this discussion but a few examples of small things which imo matter are:

1. LovelyKay's example of page 3 girls;
2. the marriage certificate example where only the father's occupation is listed; and
3. the use of he/she in particular contexts.

These are obviously small things in relation to, say, equal pay for equal work but they are important too because they shape the way we look at the different genders.

HTH

Really interested to come across this thread now, as I am getting married next year and need to take a decision on this.

I've never felt comfortable with the idea of changing my surname - not so much because it might imply that I am my husband's property so much as it wouldn't feel like 'me'.

DS has my partner's surname, but also my surname as a kind of 'second middle name', which seemed a good solution. But I really don't want or feel the need to now have the same surname as DH, his father or stepmother.

My maiden name is very unusual. I have grown up with it, it reflects my dear late grandmother's roots and Eastern European background, and it can be helpful professionally. I don't want this to change.

My own mother has surprised me by assuming that I will be taking my partner's name, and has almost implied that I'm being a bit silly / stubborn / impractical if I don't. Will it really affect DS or cause practical problems later on??

And that is your right to choose anothermueslipleaseb - no one is attacking you for that decision. You say your mother has pretty much implied that you are silly for not changing your name, but this is your chance to let her know why you feel this way.

But a lot of name keepers are attacking name changers and accusing us of being idiots who change are name for silly romantic reasons and are letting the sisterhood down. Saying we are only doing it because thats the way its always been done and we are giving in to society blah blah blah.

We are lucky to have the choice, I don;t give a rats arse about what people think of me when I correct them by saying I'm Mrs not Miss or Ms, its my choice to be called whatever I want and I am a Mrs.

If you choose to be a Ms, good for you and feel free to correct people who worngly title you as Mrs.

As has been mentioned before its like the same old arguement stay home mums vs working mums, breasfeed or formula, vaginal birth or c section etc etc. No one is wrong, we are all right.

Registered at an estate agents yesterday. The teenager who took my details asked me if I were Miss or Mrs. I told him neither - Ms if you insist but I prefer my first name. Email came through last night from them adressed to Mr & Mrs [DH's Christain name Last name]. Sorry, story loses a little impact when I'm trying no to give too much data away, but you can imagine how infuriating it is.

'
"I still don't understand the relevance of your question to this discussion but a few examples of small things which imo matter are:

1. LovelyKay's example of page 3 girls;
2. the marriage certificate example where only the father's occupation is listed; and
3. the use of he/she in particular contexts.

These are obviously small things in relation to, say, equal pay for equal work but they are important too because they shape the way we look at the different genders."

What we are talking about is the mental ans social furniture of a society that is still at heart misogynist. That's why the small things, like language and how women are talked about matters so very much. Legislation can go a long way to even out the issues of pay and opportunity (although there is still a long way to go before equality is achieved in this area), but until the concepts of equality are embedded in the psyche of society, women will still struggle to achieve equality.

So every time a woman subsumes her identity into that of a man, or automatically gives her child it's father's name, or accepts that "he" is the appropriate generic for "people", we are taking a miniscule step away from true equality. This may sound extreme, but I believe it to be true.

"every time a woman subsumes her identity into that of a man"

I have not subsumed my identity into that of a man. I simply changed my surname.

"So every time a woman subsumes her identity into that of a man, or automatically gives her child it's father's name, or accepts that "he" is the appropriate generic for "people", we are taking a miniscule step away from true equality. This may sound extreme, but I believe it to be true."

I agree with what you say, seeker, but only in the exact way that you said it. Apologies if I am being pedantic but I would like to point out that a woman who changes her name to that of her DH is not subsuming her identity into that of a man. It is possible that she may be but that would require a host of other factors/circumstances to be true. The mere fact that she changes her name does not equal subjugation. Similarly re naming DCs, I totally agree that automatically giving your DCs your DH's name is taking a step from true equality but if you end up doing so after due consideration, again, that does not ipso facto equate to inequality.

I don't think that you were saying otherwise and I'm hoping that we agree but I just wanted to make that clear.

I accept that my position might be extreme. I am of an age where I was influenced by the early feminists. It breaks my heart to see the young women of today failing to preserve hard won victories, and moulding themselves to fit into the mysogenist model.

The name changing thing is deeply symbolic. Of course an individual may not be subsuming their identity to that of a male and may feel that they are just following tradition but the tradition started for exactly that reason. It is just one of the little things that keep the aforementioned mysogenist model afloat.

Ah, I fear we do disagree then. Ho hum.

Seeker in the nicest possible way - fuck off!

I was taught to think for myself and that is what I teach my daughters. They too will be able to choose how they are known when they are old enough to make that choice.

Why is it OK for you to knock me and my choices - who put you in charge of me?

I think the problem is that seeker and ninagleams feel women should subjugate themselves to their brand of feminism. Perhaps? Is this correct?

In my mind subjugation is what is bad. I no more want to subjugate myself to my husband than I do this kind of feminism.

Another problem I see is if my husband wants to be seen as 'subjugating' himself to me, he can't...

Having caught up on all of this from last night, I'd like to make the point that there have been people on both sides who have been quite strongly anti the choices made by their opposites. So some name changers have ranted about why people get so het up about this, don't they have better things to do etc etc (and therefore making strong judgements on things that are important to the non name changers) while non name changes, as has been pointed out, have in some spots made comments suggesting they simply cannot understand a woman choossing to be Mrs DHName etc (and therefore making judgements too of a sort).

Just thought I'd clarify that!

I actually largely agree with whoever made the point that often language or the way we defines things is intrinsically sexist - we've all heard the "riddle" about a child with a doctor parent who, when his father is hurt, is able to save him (I'm expressing it badly, but the riddle basically knows that most people will assume that the doctor is the father and that therefore when the father is hurt, how is it possible for the obviously non-mother doctor to save him.). I am embarassed to admit that the first time I heard that, I also had to think about it [but in my defense I was younger and more stupid!].

The point is tht we have all kinds of pre conceptions that are bred into us and it takes time to change those. That's especially true if no one is challenging those assumptions.

Needanewname - NOBODY has the right to tell me to fuck off, either here or in real life. I would be grateful if you would withdraw the remark.

When I was in primary school the teacher asked what our parents did, I said they were both doctors, the teacher said, 'you mean your mother is a nurse' I said 'no, a doctor'.

My children refuse to accept my dad is a doctor because my sister and mum are doctors and they think it is a 'girls' job... It's just based on someone's experience of life, all that is required is a correction. The fact that most doctors were men when my mum qualified didn't affect her desire or ability to be a doctor because she is not defined by other people or their experiences. She was still a doctor.

'Define yourself' is the biggest lesson I have learned from both of my parents. My mum and dad put money away for all four of us, my mum said 'they can use it for uni' my dad said 'they might not want to go to uni, they could use it for education, a house, a car or a wedding' my mum was embarrassed.

As it turned out they spent the money they'd saved before I got it but I appreciate my dad's sentiments particularly. It's likely my bro and I would have used it for a wedding and my two sisters would have used it for uni but we had the freedom to choose for ourselves and make our own definitions rather than be subject to our parents definitions of us.

And I would be grateful if you could stop implying the I and other women like me are stupid and we are preventing women from becoming equal all because we choose to change our name.

I don;t know how to say this any clearer, I don;t care what you call yourself so why the hell should you care what I call myself?

I could change my name back to my maiden name today - all that would hapeen is that I'd have a lot of hassle in contacting hte banks, DVLA etc, etc. It wouldn;t bring women any closer to equality. In fact every bloody woman in the world could keep her maiden name or change it to a new one, it would not bring us any closer to equality. In fact this whole name thing takes us away from what is important - equal right for everyone. I have the right to change my name as you have the right to not change yours.

And I also have the right to tell whoever I want to fuck off on here or in RL.

I feel completely the other way around. Here in Belgium married women have to keep their maiden name for civil purposes. So, every time I fill out an official form, I'm forced to use my maiden name, even though I chose to change my name 5 years ago when I got married. Incidently, although I have to use my maiden name on my ID card, my husband's name still has to be listed on the back of my card, saying "epouse de M. xxx". It says nothing on his card about who he's married to! I also hate the fact that in my line of work (public institution) I get called Ms all the time, even when I have no problem being a Mrs. Why shouldn't I use Mrs if I want to?

Oh dear..... I haven't read every post, but I find all this a bit of a storm in a tea cup..... As lots of people have said, does it really matter whether some people choose to conform to the cultural norm.

I happen to like tradition (shock alert..... my DH asked my father for my hand in marriage before asking me!!! How funny and old fashioned is that!! It really made my father happy though and I thought it was sweet, and yes, my father 'gave me away'). And yet my education, my career, my relationship with my DH could not be more equal.

As it happens I didn't change my name immediately (we got married 7 years ago and I just sent my passport off last week to change my name to DH's), so I've had a fair amount of time to think about it. Funnily enough, I've never really found it a problem using either name. The issues re bank accounts are irrelevant - soon after I was married I gave my bank a copy of my marriage certificate meaning that cheques could be paid into my accounts in either in my maiden or married name, and I've found it the same with everything else along the way - I have used whichever name was convenient at the time. It was a bit annoying once when my PA booked a flight in my married name soon after I got married as she assumed I had changed my name, but even then it was fine although a bit annoying to have to take my marriage cert with me on a business trip!! Most of my friends and family always refer to me as Mrs DH, and I AM Mrs DH, whether or not I had formally changed my passport.

So why am I changing my name now 7 years on?? Well to be honest it's the family unit argument mainly. In particular I want to have the same name as my 3 children. Also I have grown used to being called by DH's name and I like it! I suppose some people would say why did we give the children DH's name not mine but I never really gave it much thought - they had to have one or other name and culturally it is usual to give DH's name, there is always a standard system to these things, (although I'm glad that people can choose to do it another way if they want to). I have friends who all went double barrelled to keep both names, but personally I think that's a bit of a faff and generally too much of a mouthful.

I have two friends who made a big point of staying as Ms Maiden Name after they got married and to be honest I find it a bit of a bore to have to remember that all the time when addressing envelopes etc (well it's only really once a year for Christmas cards!). It just seems so contrived, what does it matter if I write Mrs DH on the envelope? They are still who they are whatever I write. As I said, for the last 7 years I have kept my maiden name, but I couldn't have cared less if people addressed me as Mrs DH (which they all do anyway).

I simply don't see that following a (yes, probably outdated and definitely patriarchal) cultural tradition of nomeculture has any detrimental bearing on a woman's current place in society. Surely people just see it as a useful tradition rather than any sense of being owned by / controlled by / subservient to the men in our lives.

Anyway, to those of you who are getting married and are unsure what to do, just remember you don't have to make a decision immediately - leave it a year or two and see if you grow to like using your husband's name, then you can change it formally later if you want to.

If you actually READ what I said you would find that I did not say or imply that you or anyone else was stupid.

I did, however, say that the maintainance of these traditions like this is a small part of the reason why we do not yet have an equal society. I would be interested in any reasoned arguments you might have to refute this.