to not want to be defined by my marital status or surname?

[tealight]

To be not at all surprised that women still strive to achieve equality when some/many/most (???)women in marriage take on men?s surnames and (in marriage or not) agree to their children taking the man?s surname? That is the way it used to be when women and children were literally, in the eyes of the law, men?s property. That is the basis o the tradition for fathers to give their daughters away. And why should my marital status be used to define me every time I fill out my personal details? Miss, Mrs, Ms? Men just have Mr. Yet many of us still subscribe to this. Why why why?????

That's an idea, ermintrude. Although I never get all this 'but what will the children doooooo' panic anyway - ds and his future wife/partner/co-parent/civil partner can work it out for themselves, just like dh and I did. And whichever ancestor it was on my side who added a real comedy double barrell did, and his descendant who thankfully decided to drop it!

(As it happens, dh decided to give ds his father's Christian name as a middle, rather than his surname, which seemed like a nice gesture.)

(I think ancestor who added a surname stood to inherit some money from his mother's family, he wasn't an early proto-feminist. But my eyes glaze over a bit when my Dad starts telling me about his research so I could be wrong.)

I think it's more likely that we will end up with a whole variation in names, because people will make different choices, and different cultures have different ways of doing things too, and people move around a great deal more. Bad luck for the genealogists, but then genetics is finding better ways to track family lines in any case.

On a personal front my name is fairly irrelevant when it comes to household or indeed any other roles. dh does most things around the house because he is at home. He is at home essentially because I am more keen on work than he is (plus some highly practical constraints around work permits etc).

I think the invention of "Ms" and keeping maiden names was very important for a while, and now is much less so, because of the battle in the past about not being a husband's appendage. Now if I think of my dd I don't think what her surname ends up being is terribly important (so long as she actively chooses whatever she wants), but that she has choices in terms of her job and role in life are hugely so. And the same goes for my son.

Solid that is ridiculous. Do you really know anyone who belives that?

Ermintrude - I like the idea of the male and female line, that could work. I also welcome debate but what I cannot stand is being told that I'm letting myself be oppressed, letting the sisterhood down, a little lady no longer intelligent or feisty all because I have chosen to change my name or that I should not have changed my name in order to make it easier for other women to not change their name.

Lovelykay - yes that is unreasonable, however what happens when you laugh at them and tell them to make their own bloody tea and you'll have one too thank you very much. And men get similar responses when they join a predominiately female workplace - and womaen can be just as bad as men. Now I'm not trying to put you down for what has happened to you but what does that have to do with your surname? If you were forced to change your name that is wrong.

I'm very comfortable with feminist dialectic, thanks, Ermintrude. Not sure who has made silly remarks re "Women Studies"?

Agree that the argument that one loves one's DH as a reason for changing names is specious. Just as silly as those that say that changing your name/not changing your name makes you dependent/independent.

I find the chattels argument and us having to "move away from the system which was in use when women were just that" pretty weak too. You suggested we come up with a fairer system but not sure I saw the sensible suggestion as to what that was? In any event, no need to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Obviously in an ideal world we would start with something less patriarchal but just because a convention is based in something historically egregious doesn't mean it continues to be. For the reasons I outlined above I don't think this tradition does constitute inequality per se and the fact is that we don't live in an ideal world where we get to start from scratch so we may as well focus on real issues which actually affect the way we live.

"But why should women who want to change their name not so thats it easier for those that dont"

Well they probably should change their name if they want to. Has anyone actually said they shouldn't? Some people have said they're idiots to do it, I've said I don't think it's rational but did anyone say definitely not? I also don't think that 'easier' fits into the equation.

"I'm very comfortable with feminist dialectic, thanks, Ermintrude."

Yes, ROFL.

Hmm, musing on the why NeedaNewName, perhaps it is not specific criticism of the individual but rather a desire to see a change in any general consensus on the issue. Like, err, hunts through brain for good example, unmarried parents maybe? When I was a child it was definitely frowned on for a couple to have a baby and not get married (still happened a lot mind, but frowned on by society at large).

Now, well, do not have statistics to hand but it would not be remarked on at all as is perhaps either the majority of children or at any rate large minority? Certainly can't imagine anyone I know thinking anything of it.

So that's a change in society where no-one was screaming STOP GETTING MARRIED, IT IS EVIL but change was effected anyway. Somehow or other ...

Ninagleams, I do think we should do small things and the big ones. I just think we need to focus on the right ones iyswim.

As I've said before there are lots of very good reasons why a women would want to change her name and there are lots of very good reasons why she wouldn't. Neither of these choices is more valid or right or feminist than the other - they are just different.

Too busy writing to read leading to cross post frenzy. Neednewname I mentioned the oppression bit just because lots of people (ooh maybe two but this forum likes a sweeping statement) seemed to be saying that a) there were More Important Things to Think About and b) name changers were being referred to as oppressed.

I was showing my sisterhood! No I wasn't but making the point, I suppose, that trivia is cumulative. Yes of course I told them where to get off re: minutes and tea. But having to do that day in day out is, in itself, mind-numbing plus one risks the dreaded reputation as an aggressive troublemaker etc etc, blah blah.

A few people have said that they changed their name too avoid the hassle. I guess we often find ourselves doing stuff to avoid the hassle and this is one of those things. Sometimes it is nice to consider ways in which such hassles can be eliminated.

Also the original OP was really mostly about titles, Ms or whatever. People we must focus!

Page 3 example awful, LovelyKay - I would really struggle to work in that kind of environment and I certainly don't think it's trivial.

I think the new surname on marriage idea is an option - some people (albeit rare) do this already as others have commented. The idea of having a male and female line gives me the heeby jeebys though ...

Someone asked for a male perspective on this. Dh is behind me, not so patiently waiting for his turn on the computer. His token male perspective is that doesn't care about surnames. Both of our families do and I am always addressed as Mrs Dh's name by them and treated as unreasonable when I object to this. No-one ever calls him Mr Wahwah. He has just pointed out that his passport is up for renewal so he will change his name to Mr Dh's name Wahwah, as he has already done for council tax.

Someone asked earlier about strong feminist perspectives and I didn't for a second wish to suggest that mine was stronger than theirs or any such nonsense. My sense of a strong perspective comes from having always questioned why things were the way they were for women and by the tender age of 12 had decided never to lose my given name. I didn't have the pleasure of knowing anyone else who thought about these things back then, but I knew there were (hugely unpopular) women called feminists and I knew the names of some of them, so I aligned myself with them and described myself as such...did a bit of study later, but not as much as other people here i think...

LOL LovelyKay

stillstanding, so what do you think the small things are?

You were the one that raised small things, ninagleams, so not really sure how to answer that question ... Not trying to be difficult but genuinely confused by question ... Will take a stab and say brazilians/hairy bush?!

Oooh just remembered another one from another thread ... A poster said that she refused to buy her DH clothes because of her feminist principles. I thought that was ridiculous.

Wahwah, your description of 12 year old self rings a lot of bells.

When I talked about our choices for the childrens surnames my family were just as startled as DHs. But later when I asked my mum whether, even though she's been Mrs Husbandsname Myname for near 50 years, she didn't really deep down still think of herself as 'firstname Maidenname'* she admitted that she did. It's an incremental loss in a way, least I think so, of a tiny bit of self.

I don't think many people I know even gave it much thought before changing theirs? One friend definitely said she had never even considered the idea - and this is a woman who spent 2 weeks comparison shopping airbeds!

*aargh this coding principle is now getting very tortured but can see no way out.

I agree woth you wahwah - things shouldn;t happen just becasuse thats they way things have always been done. I've always been seen as the trouble make on one side of my family for not towing the line and making waves.

I had my reasons for changing my name just like others have their for not changing.

My problem is with some of the posters on here who think I'm an idiot for doing so, that I have made myself the property of my husband (he wishes!) that I have turned into the little lady and other such nonsense.

Yet no where I have read a name changer having a go at a name keeper. I've not had a go at feminists, or called anyone an idiot - I think the worst thing I said was that some people sounded like a bunch of A level students! And they did .

Why can't we be different, why should we all conform whether to the traditional or newer ideas. Surely its all about choice. We are fortunate to be able to choose what name and title we want to be known as, yes I can imagine its infuriating when certain people insist on calling you what they want but I've had that all my life with my first name (everyone pronounces it wrong).

Deal with it if it is that important to you. If your mil, parents, sister, friend whover writes to you as Mrs hisname hisname - return to sender saying no such person exists etc. If its importasnt to you stick to your guns but don;t have a go at people who make different choices to you and tell them they are wrong.

The original post was about why women still take men's names and give children men's names. I still think its a throw back to a patriarchal society and nobody here has convinced me otherwise, whether its choice or not. I DO respect other people's choices. Friends have changed their names, whatever floats your boat. I might wonder why but its their choice. What I still ponder is why men hardly ever take women's names?

The Mr, Mrs, Miss issue. It continues. Its always there. Sometimes I am Miss, sometimes Mrs. When peeved I am Lord/Lady/Duchess/Sir. DP is always Mr. But change does happen, when I was younger Ms hardly ever appeared and it does now! Somebody got quite nasty when somebody (sorry forgotten who said what and its late) talked about change happening slowly. But its true. I'd like to see women not be defined by their marital status..., like men aren't. I'd like even more in years to come for my daughter to be surprised that women even defended it. Now shoot me.

Well I took DH name because I didn;t like my name and got a lot of grief at school for it and didn;t want my future children to go through that grief.

I liked Dh name and his family welcomed me more than my own have ever done.

I personally don;t like Ms, don't know why, just don't.

I was a Miss before I married and am now proud to be a Mrs. It doesn;t define who I am, when I meet new people I don't introduce myself as Mrs needanewname, I'm just needanewname.

I respect your choice to use whatever title and name you want, I'm just sick of being on the wrong side of the us and them attitude, but I suppose this is the AIBU board!

Am off to bed now, night all thanks for an interesting evening.

Tealight, some women want all the members of their family to have the same surname. Lots of posters on here have set out their reasons why (some better than others in my personal opinion but all valid). The fact that that then means that most of those women take their DH's name is a throwback to patriarchal times. Same applies to why men hardly ever take women's names.

Like other posters here I'm certainly not defined by my marital status and most of the women I know aren't either. I can't honestly say though that all women I know aren't defined by their marital status but I see that as (in most cases) a personal choice. Same applies to women I know who are defined by their work. I hope that my DD is never surprised at women defending their right to choose.

Tealight, yes sorry I know that was intrinsic to the OP and it was foolish of me to post as I did. Just kind of wanted to get opinions on Ms too.

Think I agree with you overall. I look forward to a time when this whole name changing malarkey is history (then again maybe look forward to is a bit optimistic as it might take a while?)

I often get called Sir (whatever I'm wearing, even low cut frocks...) especially if discussing anything faintly technical so have even further to go in getting the Ms recognised as my appropriate title. In an ideal world we'd be 'first name last name' with gender on a need to know basis (gyno unit maybe?) Dr would be great but I've not had an original thought yet and I can't see it happening soon...

I think maybe the namechanging got a bit away from the original point, which is how annoying it is to be constantly asked whether you are Miss, Mrs or Ms when actually marital status is not important to anyone unless they want to sleep with you (and even then it's not the most important factor).