To be unsure about Unconditional parenting because.....

[poshsinglemum]

I have not read all of the book because for some reason it got on my nerves. I like a lot of what he says but my main gripe is that the author implies that you do not love your child unconditionally if you tell them off or speak to them in a stern manner. I think that it is really unfair to make parents feel guilty for telling their kids off.
Or have I got the wrong end of the stick?

Of course I completely agree with avoiding emotional blackmail and bullying and I love to be fun and loving to my dd but there are times when I have to say a stern no if she is going to hurt herself and I daresay there will be more times in the future.
Also I think it takes a real level of saintly patience to be on the level and practice up all the time, especially if like me, you are knackered a lot of the time!

thesecondcoming, I thought I had explained that I have tried this

what happens is that he refuses to clean up, however calmly handed the dustpan (more like a bucket and mop by the time he has finished)

if I just leave it to him, he walks away and leaves the mop sitting

if I tell him again, he shouts at me

and he reaches out and sticks fingers in things even if he has been served his dinner

I don't think you quite get the point- he is being deliberately obnoxious because he wants to cause trouble

he is angry, he has no desire to be rational or reasonable

I love him very much and we get on fine at other times, we spend lots of time talking and discussing things and just having fun together

but even much-loved children don't always want to be sensible and reasonable (I don't always myself, come to think of it)

Oh, and I really, really hope you don't think I'm judging you in anyway!

Hmmm...sounds like he wants to have something to annoy you about, and you are so reasonable with him, that there's not much he can use so goes for the one thing he knows will wind you up. Poor you, and poor him .

Yes, I have asked (I'm actually quite sensible ), but the problem is that he gets so angry at anything that suggests that we talk about feelings. He shouts and runs away, and unless I restrain him, we don't sort of get further. (actually, I'm not totally UP, I do get him to come back and sit at the table).

Distraction idea is not bad, problem is that he does really need to concentrate to get the food anywhere near his mouth. He is going to be a messy eater whatever he does, so he really does have to sit in the kitchen and not in a carpeted room or near upholstered furniture. I know it's not easy for him, it's so difficult to separate things he really can't help and things he is definitely doing on purpose. Even if I think I can tell what's what, he's not necessarily going to admit that.

I'm not a great one for sanctions, but one I did impose last night was that if I see you sticking fingers into a communal dish again, you will leave the table and go straight to bed.

The last time I imposed a sanction it was "if I catch you using that crutch as an offensive weapon again, I will take it away and you can get by as best you can without it". Dd has not taken off any more skin off ds's back since.

We must sound a horrible family. But really, we are friends most of the time.

I suppose the thing is, I don't mind imposing sanctions for something I can see is plain wrong- hitting a small boy with your crutch can never be right under any circumstances. But this table manner thing is so difficult because genuine difficulties are mixed up with behaviour problems, in a child who resolutely refuses to talk about feelings.

Portable dvd player on the kitchen table (in a plastic cover to protect it!)?

You don't sound horrible - you sound normal dealing with horrible things!

Can you create a kind of space for him to eat in with a disposable mat or something so that you can just scoop all the mess up under his chair/on the table in front of him and chuck it all to make clearing it up easier for you at least?

Do you think he'd do it if you didn't mind it? If not, maybe the answer is to come up with lots of ways of making it so you don't mind it?

No, you're being really helpful and thoughtful, Flamingo, not at all patronising.

The difficulty is that he is 9, so anything like a disposable mat is going to feel like a massive punishment (treating him like a baby), far more so than a more ordinary punishment like docking pocket money. At that age ime they are horrendously sensitive to being treated like a baby. I could do it, but if I did, then he would take it as a Big Punishment. Now I'm not always a nice person, so I can perfectly well see myself seeing Right, you are behaving like a baby, I will treat you like a baby. But I wouldn't think of this as unconditional- I would think of it as being pretty tough.

Portable dvd player is another thought, but it would ruin the family mealtimes we have worked so hard to establish, dh and dd would be devastated- or else he would have to be banished to another eating time (there isn't really another space). Possible, but he needs help at the table, so someone would still need to sit with him. (he takes sandwiches to school so as not to create an issue there).

Message withdrawn

Message withdrawn

Well, if I have to be frank, secondcoming, I have pitched all my posts from a UP point of view- when I have done X, ds has reacted like this.

Doesn't mean that I actually believe that UP is the only option open to me; frankly, I find ds responds better to graded sanctions as they make him less unhappy and better able to be rational: also, they mean he is not singled out from his mates; but I am willing to be open-minded about it.
if someone suggests a UP approach that works as well, then I would be willing to consider it.

Pitchounette, the table mats would have to cover the floor, that's the point. It's his habit of leaving half a mile between the table and his chair (he is made to push it in, pushes it out, pushes in, pushes out...). I'm not at all fussed with the mess made on the table, that is easy to mop up. But neither his Dad nor I feel up to crawling around the floor after every mealtime picking up bits, we feel we should be past that stage now. And sanctions are the only way we have found of making him clear up.

But as I said, I am open-minded. Keep them coming folks, there are some good ideas here.

Hi again all,

I havn't quite read all of the posts yet but thanks for such an avalanche of responses!

I guess someething I really DO like about up is the philosophy that you should not bear grudges. If you must tell your child off then do it but drop it and go back to your usual self.

After telling dd off ( which I sometimes do if I am feeling rough and she is acting up) I normally give her a big hug and kiss and apologise. I always feel guilty if I tell her off!

I don't then get in a real huff and ignore her for the rest of the day. I can understand that the whole notion of making kids earn your love is very counter productive.

I also don't like emotional blackmail but I think there are times when we do need to discipline kids. I don't think I am going to be an authorative parent either btw!

I think it is a matter of not over-reacting and explaining consequences to your kids. If you do this then x will happen etc, etc, etc.

I am not totally against UP. There is much to be drawn from it but also much to be adapted for individual parents.

agree poshsingle mum re: not bearing grudges - a little child may well not remember why you are annoyed past 5 minutes anyway!

Message withdrawn

Not sure it is blackmail though, if there is a clear list of sanctions and you just remind someone of them. In our house, if you swear, you have to put 50 p in the swear kitty (all contributions so far have been by Mother ). I wouldn't call it blackmailing if I opened my mouth to start a rant and ds went "careful, that will be 50 p in the swear kitty". It's a rule we all recognise, reminding someone of it before they got into hot water is not blackmail to me.

To me, emotional blackmail is things like "look how bad you made mummy feel" or even worse "how could you? you know I get a headache if somebody upsets me". Or bursting into tears over minor childish misdemeanours: I think you have a duty to control yourself as an adult.

Just to make it clear, if I institute a rule whereby you get to leave the table for putting fingers in the chutney jar, that would apply to all of us, even Daddy.

I agree with anniemac and Maria who have some very sensible posts. I can't go through all of them but for example:

'Anniemac - "taught that their wants/needs are the centre of the universe." "I know the people I like and value the most as adults are not the ones who think that the world revolves around their immediate desires and choices."

They're not being taught this, they're being taught that their wants/needs are as important as everyone else's.

I think that they are being taught that they are the centre of the universe. The mother is endlessly bending over backwards to make the DC's life easy by anticipating problems and heading them off. I am only human, I don't always have the energy to appease and if they are playing with the kettle I might just take it away from them-explain why and let them find their own alternative. I don't think it is a good lesson that they can make a mess in a cafe and it is OK because poor old mum will clear it up or the staff-if you are brave enough to walk out and leave it.

If they are going to get upset and cry if someone says a hard word to them it isn't doing many favours.I really don't think you should spend your life tiptoeing around your DC worrying about upsetting them. You should have normal life-if you are the hot headed passionate type there is no harm in showing it. I think that it can be good to have a shout and show that it doesn't alter your love. (I am only talking about the general ups and downs of life-not full scale, destructive rows).
It so happens that UP suits my temperament, but you have to consider that you might have a DC who would much prefer to have a quick shout and then it forgotten.
This is why I think that there is no harm in reading books, but you should adapt to suit yourself and your DC. Even within the same family you can't treat each DC exactly the same-it depends on personality.

I don't see keeping a kettle out of reach and, when the same child has climbed up to get the kettle, finding something more suitable for a 14 month old to play with as 'bending over backwards'.

Also as far as I am aware for a toddler there is no attraction whatsoever in going for a coffee. So why not let them have a bit of fun with the paper napkin while you are enjoying your coffee? That age is an ideal age to start modelling 'when we make a mess, we clear up' and they would most likely enjoy the clearing up almost as much as making the mess.

Having said that, some of the possible solutions suggested on here would feel like too much of a sacrifice to me. But I don't have any problem with telling my children that. They do need to listen to my needs and wishes too. But I think this compatible with UP.

9 times out of 10 I might do that OSoftheC but I am not a machine, if I have had no sleep and a dreadful cold I don't think it hurts to not be the 'perfect' mother. It is good for DCs to see that we are under the weather and can get irritable. I would most likely say later-'sorry I was a bit cross-I'm not very well'. It is normal give and take-the fact that you didn't handle it well doesn't mean that your DC feels unloved.
I would actually have the kettle completely out of reach in the first place.I have nothing against tearing a napkin but if they dropped it they would have to be the one to pick it up.

Ok some specific points:

I think it's true that there's not much of an attraction to a 14 month old in just me having coffee & him just sitting there. What we do is- & it's always him & me that go- he sits in a booster seat & has breakfast eg fruit, toast, whatever, while I have my coffee. He also socializes with the staff (smiles / coos at them!). IMO it makes total sense to stop him from tearing up the napkin, either by realizing he's bored & leaving or just stopping him with distraction. I do see s problem with allowing him to make a mess because he's way too young to clean it up himself, but we'll have to agree to disagree on the paper napkin issue I suppose!

One last point. Not doing emotional blackmail & not bearing a grudge is not unique to UP! It's common sense & basic decency. If UP supports that too, fine, we agree in that!

Ok, more responses.

Cory - Did you say you'd tried giving him easier to eat food? You say he has sandwiches for lunch, could he have an adapted form of whatever you're having for supper so that he can have it in a sandwich?

Pisces - "The mother is endlessly bending over backwards to make the DC's life easy by anticipating problems and heading them off." "I don't think it is a good lesson that they can make a mess in a cafe and it is OK because poor old mum will clear it up or the staff-if you are brave enough to walk out and leave it." "I really don't think you should spend your life tiptoeing around your DC worrying about upsetting them. You should have normal life-if you are the hot headed passionate type there is no harm in showing it. I think that it can be good to have a shout and show that it doesn't alter your love."

Ok, as I said, talking about consensual living here, but you're still misunderstanding what I'm talking about. It's not consensual if you, the parent, isn't happy. So if you don't want to pick up torn up napkin, then you find a solution that means you don't have to. It's not about bending over backwards to appease the children, it's about all working hard together to try to ensure no one is coerced or self-sacrifices. This gets easier the more practice you get and, of course, the older your children get. And you are right, you're not doing your children any favours if you're not genuine them - they need to know about being cross because they will be very insecure adults if they don't learn that they are still loved even after you've been cross with them, simply because you've never been cross with them!

OSOTC - "Having said that, some of the possible solutions suggested on here would feel like too much of a sacrifice to me. But I don't have any problem with telling my children that. They do need to listen to my needs and wishes too. But I think this compatible with UP."

Absolutely - not consensual if someone's making a sacrifice or compromise.

I think the point is that, if you feel that it is immoral and potentially harmful to coerce children simply because they're children and you're an adult, then you will make the effort to find common preferences. Just like, if you feel that it is immoral and potentially harmful to not do punishments you will make the effort to think up suitable ways of disciplining your children. Parenting is hard work and you will not do any good at all if you aren't willing to put in the hard work whatever approach you choose.

I agree,FlamingoBingo. It is as I said at the beginning- UP isn't an easy option and people should read it several times. It gets a terrible name because people call it that when their DC is actually bullying them! It isn't about letting your DS do whatever they like or letting them hit you etc.
You see things from the DCs point of view but they have to understand that you have one too-it is a matter of compromise to suit the whole family. A 2 yr old is too young to understand and needs to be guided in the right direction so that they are not totally obnoxious by the time that they get to 5 and can understand (but don't want to).

Flamingo, you say it is not consensual if someone's making a sacrifice or compromise.

However, life is FULL of compromises (and some sacrifices). I simply am not able to envisage or understand a world without compromise / sacrifice. Consensus seems to be simply untenable. In many contexts, not just parenting.