To be unsure about Unconditional parenting because.....

[poshsinglemum]

I have not read all of the book because for some reason it got on my nerves. I like a lot of what he says but my main gripe is that the author implies that you do not love your child unconditionally if you tell them off or speak to them in a stern manner. I think that it is really unfair to make parents feel guilty for telling their kids off.
Or have I got the wrong end of the stick?

Of course I completely agree with avoiding emotional blackmail and bullying and I love to be fun and loving to my dd but there are times when I have to say a stern no if she is going to hurt herself and I daresay there will be more times in the future.
Also I think it takes a real level of saintly patience to be on the level and practice up all the time, especially if like me, you are knackered a lot of the time!

AnnieMac, I agree with every word of what you wrote!! (including the curly frizzy hair actually , mine is curly/frizzy too!)

Again, I can't agree more with AnnieMac.

Also, I wholeheartedly believe that one of the most important lessons to teach a child is that they're not the centre of the world. And not the centre of the family either, just an important part of the family. All this talk nowadays of 'self esteem' and children 'being special' etc is not doing kids any favours.

Just to be clear. I'm NOT talking about strictness. I actually disagree with parents being overly strict, shouty, punishments all the time etc. I'm talking about learning to be considerate, learning to surrender one's desires because of larger 'laws' or because of the good of others etc. For me, the example of throwing paper napkins on the floor in Starbucks is actually a good one. Yes, my DS could be left to get on with it (and I could pick it up later). But what would that be teaching him in your opinion? It would be saying, I think, that he is able to do whatever he wants in any public space & mummy will pick up the mess afterwords. Not the lesson I want to be teaching him!

I think one problem here is that we are not necessarily talking about children of the same age. I might have let a 1yo tear up a paper napkin in Starbucks and then cleared up quietly. But Flamingo, would you still be doing it with a 10yo? And if so, how would you expect that 10yo to leave any public space when you are not there to clear up after him?

I think rules have to change as children grow. It's not a disaster or a failure, it's a natural consequence. A tiny baby who makes a mess doesn't have to be punished in view of years to come. But an older child has to know that they are not allowed to make messes, because it is not fair to expect other people to clear up after them.

(am waiting eagerly for Flamingo to sort out ds's table manners)

Maria - "To be honest, I think our main difference is that I see all these small opportunities as lessons in socialization, limit-setting, what we do in different settings etc."

But I believe (and have seen many times) that children will learn these things anyway, just by watching us and being part of normal social life.

"Nappy changing: see the thing is, I'm a bit lazy & in a hurry often & the idea of giving DS something to eat or putting him in the bath etc in order to change his nappy is something I wouldn't consider for my own benefit, not his. "

So that option wouldn't have been a common preference. It's not about self-sacrificing so that your child gets what he wants - you're not doing him any favours if you do that because you're not teaching him to think about what you want as well.

Anniemac - "taught that their wants/needs are the centre of the universe." "I know the people I like and value the most as adults are not the ones who think that the world revolves around their immediate desires and choices."

They're not being taught this, they're being taught that their wants/needs are as important as everyone else's.

Cory - I can't fathom why he wants to eat so messily! Do you know why? I have to say that I can't think of anything off the top of my head to suggest, but may come up with something later on, or I may not. Doesn't mean the answer's not there, though. I wonder if he is a child who needs a lot of sensory input? Could I ask on another forum for 'looney' parents like myself and post any results?

And re. letting a 10yo tear up a paper napkin - I wouldn't force him to stop, but I can't believe that a rational 10yo would really want to do that! Surely if he did, he could be persuaded to tear the pieces into a saucer or something to make it easier to clear up.

Kitty - "UP is looney and will raise a bunch of conceited out of control people. Everyone else has to deal with the problems caused by this type of parenting"

What an insightful comment, thank you so much. Really helpful for the debate

Witch - "One difficulty i have with it is something i realised the otherday when ds (4ish) was shouted at by his aunt. He was really really upset and hurt beacuse he has never really been shouted at. Now I worry that by being too nice and controlled iyswim i've not taught ds that if someone shouts it does not mean they do not love him (its kind of the reverse of UCP). Am i making sense?"

Yes, making total sense. So you teach him how to deal with it. Children have to deal with people who behave differently to what they're used to all the time. And I'm impressed you never shout at him yourself . Anyway, I wouldn't start shouting at him just to get him used to it though!

Flamingo, I suspect he is angry because his wrists don't work very well. He knows we want to help him as much as possible, but he is still angry and wants to punish us for it. We try not to rise to the bait, but unfortunately are noticing that his table manners are becoming such an ingrained habit that other parents are not terribly keen to have him eat with their kids. And frankly, there is no physical reason why he has to trail his sleeves in his food or stick his fingers in his chutney.

As for 10yos not wanting to make a mess- I seem to see people deliberately making messes wherever I go, throwing sweet wrappers around, tearing things up (possibly as an aid to thought) and then strewing them around the shopping precinct all the time. Not just 10yos, all ages,but you cannot deny that there is lots of litter around. Illogical, stupid, you can't see why they would want to do it, but it's still there.

Both my children have been quite destructive because they are angry. I have done everything in my power to understand and validate their anger, but I have also felt the need to protect the rest of the family and their possessions. And just talking doesn't always help.

But they haven't been taught that it's not acceptable to leave rubbish around, cory. My 6yo knows not to leave rubbish lying around (in fact often picks it up from the street to throw away ).

And re. your DCs being so angry - this sounds like a much bigger issue than the individual problems you're talking about. Do they need some sort of counselling or play therapy or something? Hope you don't find that patronising. And I agree you need to protect your family and possessions, but no talking is going to work if you the underlying problem isn't sorted out.

Let the 14 month old tear up the paper if it it amuses him and then pick it up together.

That's what I'd do at home and in a café.

Or let him tear up the paper and give him a cup to post it into as he does it (even more fun)

Cory, why does your DS want to eat like a slob? Has he explained?

Sorry question already answered, having trouble keeping up here.

We've had countless rounds of counselling, Flamingo, as I mentioned in one of my earlier posts. As I said then, it's not a magic wand. It can't take away the underlying problem; that's one they gradually learn to live with. Dd is almost there, ds may have a few more years to go. But the problem will never go away: they will always be in pain afaik. And there will always be times when they are aware that this is unfair. The only part we can control is their behaviour and that is going to influence how they feel about the rest of the situation.

I think one thing that has helped is our attitude of Yes, I know this is tough, yes I know it hurts, but you still have to stick to a certain behaviour and we will ensure that.

I know when my friend's little boy got very angry and started lashing out at school because his Mum was dying, one thing that did helped him was that the school combined a very kind and understanding attitude (including counselling) with a firm system of sanctions; it helped him to understand that the whole world hadn't collapsed but that the whole system was still somehow working. If they had let him get away with it, he would have been even more frightened than he was. Not to mention how frightened the other children would have been.

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Should add that ds has not told me that his anger is the cause for his table manners; we have deduced that from the way he reacts. He absolutely loathes talking about feelings; it's his worst bug bear. Very different from the rest of the family, but not so much we can do about that.

for your DCs. That's a hard thing to deal with. And I agree that containing anger plays an important role. I am so against time out it's unreal, but my DD2 (the one I mentioned earlier) gets so furious she just can't contain her anger at all, and gets terrified by it, which just makes it worse. Eventually, I've had to resort to putting her in her room and holding the door shut until she stops trying to get out, and showing her that I can contain it and the world isn't going to come crashing down, seems to work wonders. She doesn't have another tantrum for weeks after I deal with one properly, after a run of them.

Anger is a horrible emotion to have to suffer frequently.

Pitchouette - I agree - my parents were pretty UP too, although instinctively so.

Cory - have you already explained why your DCs have chronic pain? I may have missed it - this thread is moving fairly quickly at times!

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"They're not being taught this, they're being taught that their wants/needs are as important as everyone else's."

Can't see why that is any different to the centre of the universe analagy.

Their needs may sometimes be as important as someone elses , but at other times their needs and wants will not be and sometimes they will be more important,
and it will not always be the time and place to explain why their wants/needs are not just as important at that moment.
I'm probably of the benign neglect sort of parenting with a little bit too much shouting thrown in (bit too much mediterranean blood ) I asked my DCs 12 and 14 whether they ever felt unloved and they both said no.

but surely my love for my DCs is not uncondtional?

i mean, if DD topped Ds, i would have a hard job still being a loving mummy.

YANBU - all those books are piles of toss. you have to pick and choose what you like from them, what works for you, and discard the rest.

i am just imaginging discussing the effects of bad behaviour with DD...what a laugh

me - you do know that hurt DS, don't you
DD - BA bab abababa
Me - you know i can't let you play with him if you do that??
DD - PooooOOOOOOHH -POOOO!
Me - and i will take you rtoys if you hit him with them
DD - EEEEEEeee!! Un - OO -EEE !!

and so on. I think I'll carry on with sharp words/ temporary exclusion/ etc. It works.

It's a genetic disorder, Flamingo, thought to be Hypermobility Syndrome, but we are shortly about to start another round of investigations to see if it might be one of the other more serious forms of Ehlers Danlos syndrome instead. Ds is not too bad in himself, but it affects a lot of the practical things he would like to do: he can't write very well, he can't use cutlery, can't tie his shoelaces- it puts him apart on an everyday level, and his legs and arms hurt. He does fine at school socially, has never been in trouble, and is not really violent towards us either, but clearly has quite a lot of anger that he needs to take out somehow (punchbag no good because it messes up his wrists). I suspect that's where the revolting table manners come in; unlike dd a few years back, he finds it hard to hit me.

Dd has a higher level of disability (high absence rates, uses wheelchair at times), but is also older, so copes with it better. Her worst anger is behind her; these days she usually copes well. Again, she is popular at school and generally behaves well- but it's been hard work getting there. I still have the scars, shall we say, and they're not all metaphorical. Never felt the counsellors did her much good: you would have needed specially trained counsellors with experience of chronic pain and they don't grow on any bush tbh. But I think we can say we did everything.

Have you asked him if he could come up with a solution? I'm sure you have, but the secondcoming's idea is good except that it's not really in the spirit of consensual living.

But say to him 'look, I can't stand eating like this, how do you propose we change things so that I am happy as well as you being happy? Would you consider eating elsewhere until you feel able to eat more tidily? Would you consider having a play with some flubber or something similar to get rid of some anger before you start eating, so you can eat more nicely at the table?. If you don't like either of those ideas, is there something else you can think of?'.

Would you be happy if he watched a dvd while he ate? Would that distract him enough from the pain to stop him being messy?

I'm really just chucking ideas in the pot - I know most won't work, but something must!