To be unsure about Unconditional parenting because.....

[poshsinglemum]

I have not read all of the book because for some reason it got on my nerves. I like a lot of what he says but my main gripe is that the author implies that you do not love your child unconditionally if you tell them off or speak to them in a stern manner. I think that it is really unfair to make parents feel guilty for telling their kids off.
Or have I got the wrong end of the stick?

Of course I completely agree with avoiding emotional blackmail and bullying and I love to be fun and loving to my dd but there are times when I have to say a stern no if she is going to hurt herself and I daresay there will be more times in the future.
Also I think it takes a real level of saintly patience to be on the level and practice up all the time, especially if like me, you are knackered a lot of the time!

Anyway, the example of my dd is one that I have come across many many times while they have growing up: a child who is upset and hurt and wants to hurt others. It is not all that rare.

No, I think children feel secure when their lives are stable and the people caring for them are stable. I think children feel insecure when their parents are very laissez-faire, which is different from what I'm talking about.

I wish I was more articulate about this!

I don't think it's a democracy either - democracy is about going with what most people want. I think that children need practice at anything to get good at it. I think children benefit from growing up learning to think rationally and creatively and to try to work co-operatively.

There have been seemingly unworkable impasses in our family many times that actually the children have come up with the best solutions for.

I often, often get it wrong and often, often end up coercing them. But when I believe very strongly that it was not because there wasn't a solution, but because we didn't manage to find it. We were constrained by my narrow-mindedness, or my tiredness levels, or by social norms that I was trying to fit in with. I have to try to think outside the box, though.

For instance, for a very long time DH and I were struggling every night getting DD2 to go to sleep. It was unpleasant for everyone and by the time she was asleep, DH and I would be exhausted. Eventually we took a step back and looked at the situation with really, really open minds.

Our issue was that we wanted the evenings doing grown up stuff - not having to make drinks for the children, play with them etc. We wanted a break. But there were other ways we could do that without making the children go to bed by a certain time. She didn't need to be up in the morning, as we home educate. She seems to be an 'evening person' (unlike her sister who is a morning one).

So we decided to let her go to bed when she was ready, and say that if she was staying up, please could she look after herself and we wouldn't be playing with her. She was fine with this and it's worked brilliantly. If we want to watch something too adult for them in the evenings, then she and her sister watch a dvd in their bedrooms (something else we had to have a big mind-change about having previously thought 'tvs in their rooms - never!'). They use the portable dvd player. The evenings aren't stressful anymore, we're getting what we want, she's getting what she wants (and needs). She sleeps late in the mornings and wakes refreshed and happy.

So, no, I don't think the parents HAVE to be in charge but yes, the parents are ultimately responsible. The parents are the ones with the experience and knowledge, but are not infallible and are restricted by having less open minds than children. I think we ought to be using the different strengths that we all have to ensure no one is feeling coerced.

I think that children need to feel secure, to know that you are the adult and will keep them safe. It is a very frightening world if the parent lets you take the natural consequence and treats you as an equal.It means that you have to responsible for yourself at an age where you shouldn't need to be.
A lot of things don't make sense to a DC -it doesn't mean that they don't have to be done.
It doesn't make sense to the DC to have to go to the post office to post a parcel when they are in the middle of the game-however the parent knows that they need to get there to catch the post or the birthday present will be late. You can explain that to a 2 yr old until you are blue in the face-they still don't want to leave their game and put son shoes and a coat.
It also depends on personality. Some are just contrary. They will tantrum because they wanted a red beaker and you gave them the blue, if you then hand them the blue they will still tantrum because it is too late. My parents always used reason, it worked with me and my older brother-it was a dismal failure with my younger brother-he wasn't open to reason!
I tell mine they will thank me when they are older-and I believe they will!
I can imagine the little girl with the tangled hair looking back at old photos and being completely mystified and saying 'it should have been so pretty-why didn't you brush it?'

cory - my DD2 sounds like your DD. Mine is very spirited, very hard work, very intense and frequently very angry. She is a real challenge and would be whatever 'style' of parenting we used!

However, when she and I go through bad patches, and I'm shouting at her a lot, and feeling very much like I don't particularly like her, let alone love her, things just get worse and worse. Eventually I get to a point where I am tearing my hair out and then take a step back and think about why she's behaving so unpleasantly.

Invariably I come to the conclusion that she is repeatedly testing my love - testing that it really is unconditional. Of course, all she's finding out is that it is - she is horrid, I get cross and walk away from her or put her away from me.

When I remember this, I try very hard to cuddle her whenever she's horrible but make it very clear I'm really angry with her and her behaviour is not acceptable. This is not a mixed message, it is saying 'you've done wrong but I still love you'.

Really, truly and honestly, she always, always starts to improve within a day or so of me doing this. I wish I could remember it whenver she starts being horrible so we wouldn't have to get to screaming point beforehand.

With bedtimes I think they need to take other people into account. You can't make them sleep, but you can make them go to bed. I explained to mine that I did nice things with them all day and that the evenings were my time for peace and quiet to do the things that I wanted with no DCs. They had a bedtime routine and went to bed. They were able to read or play but in their room and they didn't come out. It didn't include TV or DVD as I don't believe in having them in bedrooms. Adults have rights too.

Okay, FlamingoBingo so your opinion is there are only a few examples that you feel cannot be solved by a discussion with your child.

Please advise me how a UP follower would have dealt with this situation this morning.

School starts at 8.50 and we have to be out of the door by 8.40 at the latest. Usually I would put breakfast on the table at around 7.45, put ds's clothes within easy reach and ask him to eat and get dressed in whatever order he chooses, he has nearly an hour so plenty of time. I normally have to give him gentle reminders to get a move on and he is nearly always ready on time.

Today we were not in our normal routine as I spent most of the time throwing up in the bathroom (morning sickness). At about 7.30 I asked ds (5.2) to go and get dressed and told him I would make breakfast when I had stopped being sick. 8.15 comes and I go downstairs to see that he is not dressed, I quickly put cereal and fruit on the table and rush upstairs to be sick again, I stress to ds that he really must get a move on as we will be late. I shout reminders down the stairs every few minutes.

8.45 I manage to stop being sick, go downstairs, find ds in the middle of a battle with his transformers and he hasn't even begun to eat breakfast or get dressed. I tell him that I have to get him dressed and he will have to eat some fruit on the way to school. He refuses because he wants to carry on playing with his transformers and doesn't mind about being late for school. I explain that we are already late, playing with his toys is not an option and if he doesn't come now he will miss registration and probably won't be able to choose what lunch he wants. He doesn't care and runs off. I tell him that he is now on a final warning and if he doesn't come and get dressed now he will not get any pocket money tomorrow. Sheepishly he comes over says sorry and gets dressed.

It was the threat of losing his pocket money that persuaded ds to get dressed, I expect a UP follower would tell me that I was wrong that I should have waited until ds was ready to get dressed without resorting to threats. Why?? We could have been there all morning waiting for him to decide that he needed to get dressed. As it turned out as soon as ds was out of the front door he was full of smiles talking about how he was looking forward to the weekend, I apologised for not being able to help him as much as I normally do and he told him that he will try and be a good boy and was sorry for upsetting me, its just that he loves his transformers and misses them so much when he is at school.

Please tell me what I should have done differently?

If mine were getting on top of me it was usually because I was handling it badly-it is easy to be negative and a downward spiral. I would go into another room-count to 10 and come back with a smile and find a positive. It is very easy to get dragged down to toddler level! Everyone gets cross and irritated-I don't think it does DCs any harm to know that you are human. DH and I always apologised to them if we thought we had been wrong.Communication is the thing-and a sense of humour.

You couldn't thedollshouse! You have my sympathy.DS won't hold it against you-it would have been far more upsetting for him to take the natural consequences. He also apologised which was sweet-DCs who don't have to consider others don't do that.

You apologised too-I think you handled it brilliantly.

I always apologise to ds too, and explain that I have been stressed for whatever reason. I think it is a good thing as ds will always apologise when he recognises he has been in the wrong. When he was at nursery he shouted at a boy, then said sorry and apologised to the teacher at the end of the session which I thought was really sweet.

I liked two bits in particular about the UP book..

The first was the idea that you should try to focus on the adult you want the child to be in the future - I actually find that a helpful principle to bear in mind when trying to teach DD how to behave.

The other was the stuff about reward charts - I don't think these have been discussed on this thread yet? I always felt a bit uneasy about using them, although I know that many people say that they 'work'.

But I do think it's hard to avoid 'punishments' even if you dress them up as natural consequences - e.g. if you are going to hit me during your bedtime story then I'm going to have to stop reading it...is that a natural consequence or a punishment?

The hair thing has got me worried! My DD has very curly hair. One of my friends has curly hair also and she said that having it brushed and scraped back every day as a child felt like a form of torture and she hated her curly hair as a result. I wanted to avoid that so I have a deal with my DD that we wash it once a week and use leave-in conditioner and don't brush it during the week - just run fingers through. It does look a bit wild sometimes. Is she really at increased risk of nits? I didn't think of that tbh. Sorry if this counts as a hijack!

I don't think nits care about the state of the hair! Not reading the rest of the story would be a sensible natural consequence but I would be quite clear on that one-no one hits anyone else-non negotiable.

thedollshouse - I'd like to know the answer to that too! I think it's back to the natural consequence/punishment thing.... where UP gets really hard imo is where the children don't care about experiencing the natural consequence,e.g. of not getting dressed, being late for school etc. I've had to forcibly dress DD before in the situation you're describing and I would certainly have resorted to withdrawing pocket money if she got any.

thedollshouse - I think I would have ended up doing the same but, like you, known it wasn't the best, or most moral, answer.

Personally, school battles are one of the many myriad reasons we home educate. I'm not suggesting you do that, but it does mean that we don't have to commit to things until they're old enough to understand committment. DD1, who is now a mature 6yo, will go willingly to things she's committed to, even if she doesn't really fancy it that day, because she understands the long-term implications of it. She's chosen it, she must carry it out. If she doesn't want to do it long term, that's fine, she stops going, but she can't chop and change. DD2 on the other hand, at 4.5, does not have the age and experience to understand that so it's simpler for her just to not do things that require committment.

It sounds like you tried everything, and I like the 'eating fruit on the way to school solution' - I often forget that one. Must stick it on the wall or something! And you are constrained by your early pregnancy exhaustion and sickness. Don't beat yourself up, I don't see how you could have managed that situation any other way.

nomoresleep - only a punishment if it's not true. If you're saying 'I'm not willing to be hit, it's not acceptable, I'm going to move away from you until you stop', then that's real. If you're thinking 'how can I get him to stop, I know, I'll bribe him by telling him I won't read to him otherwise' then it's a punishment IYSWIM.

OK now I'm finding this discussion much more interesting. At least we're talking about particular examples / behaviours & not discussing what is & what isn't 'true' UP.

Flamingo, you say: "It is not acceptable to hurt other people and this is behaviour that should be stopped. My point is that there are actually very, very few examples of times when children really, really need to be coerced. When they hurt someone else, when they need life-saving treatment, when they are about to run infront of an articulated lorry. Nearly everything else we assume is a given can be reconsidered and talked about to find a solution that makes all parties happy, not just the parent".

One question. How will you stop behaviour that is hurtful? What methods would you use? Particularly when time is of the essence.

And one disagreement. I don't agree at all that are 'very very few examples when children need to be coerced'. Actually I think it happens many many times every day with toddlers at least, that some coercion is needed. It all depends what we mean by coercion. Just to think of examples of what I consider coercion.

This morning I:
--coerced my 14 month old in order to change his nappy. Me & his dad had to physically restrain him in order to change it as nothing else worked
--I stopped him in Starbucks from playing with a paper napkin because he was tearing it in tiny pieces & throwing it on the floor. He didn't like that I took it away from him.
--I coerced him in order to get him dressed (to go to Starbucks). He didn't like that either although he did cooperate finally, but I wanted to do it relatively quickly so a bit of coercion was involved.
--He was playing with the kettle, managed to remove it from the shelf & was dragging it with him. I took it away & said it's not something he can play with. He didn't like that either.

Are all these examples of coercion or am I talking nonsense? Or is UP more about older children?

One example of what I consider 'ultra-democratic' (i.e. bonkers) parenting. My DP was some years ago on holiday with a family who at the time had a 9 year old DD. There was also another friend with them. So the group consisted of 4 adults & the one child. One evening they had an appointment to go sightseeing around 7 pm. My DP & the other friend waited & waited for the family. They appeared finally at 8.30 pm (too late for the sightseeing by that point). They- in all seriousness- said that they couldn't leave earlier because their DD had some inspiration & was writing something (said DD is actually an excellent writer, she's now 18 & writes for a local newspaper). The parents felt at the time that their DD's inspiration & need to write came first. The other adults could wait. They said they had tried to tell her that there was an appointment but she was too involved in the writing & said she preferred to write. (No mobile phones at the time).

What do UPers think about this?

Ok. Can I just clarify that personally, I am not talking about UP, I am talking about the philosophy of consensual living as applied to parenting. It is different, but UP is what led me to it.

I would stop dangerous behaviour by whatever means necessary. I will hold their hands to stop them hitting, I will put them in another room if necessary, but I make it as clear as possible that that is to protect them/the victim until they've calmed down enough to actually talk about it, not as punishment. All of mine have been through throwing/hitting/pinching phases as toddlers, and it's been very unpleasant and confusing to deal with, but they've all grown out of it so now, with DD3 and DD4, I just accept they'll grow out of it, keep telling them it's not ok, keep suggesting other ways of dealing with anger, and keep protecting their victims.

Your examples:

--coerced my 14 month old in order to change his nappy. Me & his dad had to physically restrain him in order to change it as nothing else worked

Yes, I struggle with this one a lot, particularly if it's dirty. Buy different nappies that are easier to change? Whip it off when they're standing up and only lie them down to put the new one on? Put a tv programme on for them to watch while you do it? Give them someting nice to eat while you're doing it? Take it off to put him in the bath (or do something else he loves) and put the new one on in a different situation ISYWIM? I don't think toddlers do have to be coerced for nappy changes, but I do agree that, for me, it's one of my biggest challenges trying to find a way of doing it that doesn't coerce them and I frequently give up and just do it as quickly as possible .

--I stopped him in Starbucks from playing with a paper napkin because he was tearing it in tiny pieces & throwing it on the floor. He didn't like that I took it away from him.

Why did you take it away from him? Was it really a problem? Could you just have cleared it up afterwards? Given him something else to do before taking it away? Was he bored? Was it time to drink up your adult drinks and leave?

--I coerced him in order to get him dressed (to go to Starbucks). He didn't like that either although he did cooperate finally, but I wanted to do it relatively quickly so a bit of coercion was involved.

Could you have taken clothes to put him in when you got there? Let him go in his pyjamas? You're lucky with him being so young - you can get away with pyjamas when you're out a bit easier . But in reality, there's no problem with wearing pyjamas out except getting cold. Bring a jumper and warm socks?

--He was playing with the kettle, managed to remove it from the shelf & was dragging it with him. I took it away & said it's not something he can play with. He didn't like that either.

Give him something else interesting to play with? What was dangerous about the kettle? Could you have made it safe for him? Then ensure it doesn't happen in future by keeping it far back on the shelf?

I don't know what I think about your DP's situation. Were there two parents? Couldn't one have gone to find the others and said that the DD and other adult wouldn't be joining them or would catch them up? I agree it's very rude and inconsiderate and not teaching their DD anything about co-operative living, just about selfish living. Fine if she prefers to write and parents are happy to sit with her while she does, but that's not a solution that suits everyone because other people involved in the situation are unhappy.

Flamingo, thanks for your response, it really helps you understand your perspective. I have to say that as to some of the general points I tend to agree too. I do have a problem though- a big problem, actually, for many reasons- with the idea of 'consensus' in a family. I agree, children should be listened to & respected. But that's not the same as being able to reach consensus. Parents know best, & their opinions come first, not because they're better, just because they're the ones responsible for how the family is run. So consensus IMO is not a possibility in many occasions. Then again, I only have a 14 month old, and I'll see how I get on in years to come. So, as to your particular points:

Nappy changing: see the thing is, I'm a bit lazy & in a hurry often & the idea of giving DS something to eat or putting him in the bath etc in order to change his nappy is something I wouldn't consider for my own benefit, not his. I think that's one point where we disagree. I accept & find it inevitable that often I do things just because I'm in a hurry, not for DS's comfort. I'm ok with that (more or less). I don't have the energy, the time or the will to spend endless time thinking about how to change his nappy. I do give him little toys to play with (sometimes work) & I often sing to him during nappy changes (sometimes work). But most often only coercion / physical restraint works. I'm not prepared to do anything more (feeding / TV watching / bath)- that's my own limit I suppose.

Playing with the paper napkin: I don't want him to be making a mess in public spaces. It's not about me clearing the mess after (which I don't want to have to do! but I suppose I could if I have to). It's about him learning, even this early on, that throwing a paper napkin on the floor in a public space- and also at home!- is not allowed. And yes, he was a bit bored, so I drank up my coffee & left 10 mins later.

Dressing: No, I wouldn't allow him out with his pyjamas. That's because I think night time & day time are different & getting in & out of pyjamas is one way to 'signify' that. Also- again for my own ease too! but also for reasons of socialization- I wouldn't even consider dressing him while at Starbucks! It never even occurred to me as an option to be honest.

Playing with the kettle: I allow him to play with plastic bits & pieces (tupperware etc) & various other things. But other things, no. And I suppose it's my fault to have the kettle within easy reach...

To be honest, I think our main difference is that I see all these small opportunities as lessons in socialization, limit-setting, what we do in different settings etc. I'm generally a softie at heart, but I do want DS to learn to coexist with others in the real world. I don't feel it's doing him any favours to allow him to make a mess in public spaces without me intervening, or to allow him out in his pyjamas (I would when he was a baby, of course, but not as a toddler).

Flamingo, I'm not actually a shouty person, so from that point of view I've been ok. The risks of my totally losing my temper are slight, I'm quite calm.

But I have also lived for many years with a child who has wanted to destroy property and hurt others because she has felt that life is unfair. Not illogical or anything to do with parental lies- if you have chronic pain and have to give up the dancing that matters more to you than anything ,then you are going to be angry. You are going to feel that life would be fairer if other people suffered too. (Ironically, the little brother she took her anger out on has now been diagnosed with the same condition).

Having my unconditional love has naturally been a great help to her (and I don't like to think how things would have been otherwise), but it cannot take away from the fact that her life was unfair and she still could not be allowed hurt other people or break their things because her life had been broken.

Her last violent tantrum was around the age of 9, by which time she was almost as tall as me. I did not lose my temper, but I did restrain her. Moving away was not an option as she would run after me to hit and kick. If I locked myself in (not that I ever tried that) she would have wrecked the house (she did a fair bit of damage to property in those days).

I did sometimes punish her when she kept sneaking in and ruining her brother's toys. Or breaking my things and then trying to blame it on her brother. Yes, she had counselling, of course she did, but counselling is not a magic wand, she needed rules for every day. She needed to know that despite everything going on, she was still an ordinary child who could be made to live an ordinary life.

If I waited for her to feel better I would have waited a long time (and her little brother would have battered, and not have had an unbroken toy to his name).

The truth is that she may never feel better about the hand life has dealt her. But she still has to be polite and kind and considerate to other people and respectful of property. Because otherwise her life really would be shit.

Thankfully, she is now old enough to see this. And she has been very understanding when other children have been going through bad times.

Ok above example was a bit extreme (though not very rare- I know several children in the neighbourhood who have anger management problems for similar reasons)

But what about this one. We all enjoy our family meals: however, recently dh and dd and I have all felt that they are getting pretty unbearable because of ds's gross table manners. He insists on sticking his fingers in his food (he does not wash them before the meal either unless hounded by threats), his sleeves are permanently unbuttoned and dangle into his dinner, his elbows are all over the place, getting into everybody's way, he sticks his grubby fingers into communal dishes. He keeos pushing his chair back every few minutes leaving a big gap down which he drops food. Frankly, it is putting us all off our food. He has to have a clean shirt for school every day because of getting his supper all over it, which buggers my environmental conscience.

If left to eat on his own, he gets the whole floor smeared with food and refuses to clean up (again unless threatened in non-UP manner). He is 9.

If left to his own devices, that means a lot of work for his Dad who does the after-supper clearing of the kitchen. It is unhygienic and unpleasant for everybody.

Of course I have tried gentle reasoning with him; that is always our first port of call. He either gets angry and shouts, or promises and then keeps doing the same thing. I have also explained that I understand that certain things, like cutting, are difficult for him (weak wrist joints) and that we are always happy to help him with that (and I've bought him special cutlery, which he has a choice of using). But this does not explain or excuse the fingers in the chutney jar.

He actually enjoys his food, and I make a point of often cooking dishes I know he enjoys and he does enjoy the family conversations, so he is not unhappy about the meal situation per se. It's just that he wants to eat

Now I can deal with this in a non-UP manner , so I'm not helplessly going to accept this situation.

But I would be very interested in having some UP suggestions.

correction: It's just that he wants to eat like a slob.

(Sorry meant to say it really helps ME understand your perspective...)

UP is looney and will raise a bunch of conceited out of control people. Everyone else has to deal with the problems caused by this type of parenting

One difficulty i have with it is something i realised the otherday when ds (4ish) was shouted at by his aunt. He was really really upset and hurt beacuse he has never really been shouted at. Now I worry that by being too nice and controlled iyswim i've not taught ds that if someone shouts it does not mean they do not love him (its kind of the reverse of UCP). Am i making sense?