why is the "success" of life with a baby always measured by how detached you get them to be?

[emkana]

You know - not held too often, sleeping in own bed/own room, not feeding too often...

case in point is my friend with six week old baby, she is desperately trying (and to be fair to her succeeding) to get him to sleep through the night and fall asleep by himself, and not to "give in " too much to him during the day either -

I don't get it! Don't get me wrong, I think she has to do what feels right for her but I question whether she is doing it because that's what she wants to do or because that's what her mother/her sister/society keep telling her she should be doing...

I don't want to be clung to, that's why. I hate being clung to. So I decided early on that I wasn't going to be clung to. And my children (and I know this is at least partially luck) don't cling.

I ampretty certain that if ds2 had been allowed to be carried everywhere, he would have been perfectly happy to be carried everywhere. But I didn't want to carry him everywhere. I wanted to put him down and do something else.

It doesn't mean I don't love him - I do. deeply. And I would kill for him. but demand feeing past the age of 1 - Not Happening. Ditto being carried everywhere. Ditto controlling where I go by screaming at me. I have seen one of my friends driven nearly insane by a very clingy, and dare I say spoilt toddler, and I swore it would not happen to me.

everyone who is saying "There'snothing wrong with them cosleeping/nightwaking/needing to be held " - no, there probably isn't, but there is nothing wrong with putting them down in their cot and letting them grizzle for 3 minutes until they go to sleep while you have a nice hot bath, either!

No, there would be nothing wrong with it if your child would grizzle for three minutes then fall asleep. DS would have screamed until he vomited.

Emkana - couldn't agree more, I have friends who boast about putting their LOs in their own rooms the minute they came out of hospital, letting them cry themselves to sleep so they learn to settle themselves etc and I find it so sad.

I think it's an expectation, our Mothers were drilled in the 4 hourly feed, no nighttime feeds after 6 weeks etc

I am seen as a weirdo as I have my babies in my bed with me to about a year and feed them to sleep. After the first one I decided that I wouldn't expect them to sleep through, wanted them to cosleep and thought sod everyone else.

but some babies never get the opportunity to self-settle - they are grimly held until being put down is so alien to them of course they scream when it happens.

I know all babies are different. Ds1 got held until he howled to be put down (after about 5 minutes ) and I don't know why he was like that, but he always did sleep beautifully.

Ds2 preferred to be held, and mostly I did. But I had no qualms about leaving him to bellow if I had to do something else, and actually I consider me finishing my dinner or having a quick shower to be bloody important and unless someone is hurt I will not be interrupted!

The thing is NOBODY should be bragging about random things like whether or not a baby sleep 6 hours in one stint, or that they are proudly meeting every need that baby has. It's simply not an arena for bragging.

Most of us do what WE can do with the personality of the baby we get - there are very few parents who struggle against the grain of either their own personality or the child's, with heroic results.

(Which isn't to say that most of us couldn't change a few things for the better, I know I look back and could have done a couple of things differently and we might have been happier for it.)

Hmm, i dont hold with leaving them to cry so you can go have a lovely bath. Think that has smatterings of selfishness. I dont dounbt for a second that you love you children at all but I also dont agree that a child can be spoilt by nuturing, cuddling and cosleeping. Fwiw ds1 sleeps happily and i think that is the way he is. Regardless of whether he was left (which is wasnt) or if he co-slept. I think some children sleep and some dont. They are little individuals. What i dont feel comfortable with is the notion of leaving a small child whos only means of expressing a need is to cry, being ignored so mummy can go have a relaxing bath. Selfish imo.

But i'm not likely to see you POV and (shock and horro) I still allow ds2 to bf when he feels he needs to. Hate the term demand because it isnt a demand it is a need, therefore i am meeting his needs. Dont give a fuck fig whether this is seen as 'spoiling' him. What would drive me crazy would be being so wrapped up in following a routine, following the sheep and being controlling that i ignored both his basic need and my basic instincts.

I don't really understand the OP. Why does a child sleeping mean that they are detached?

And hearing neighbours newborn crying and crying until hoarse because shes too busy cleaning her car or her patio etc is heart wrenching.

clara - read the thread

I can't think of anyone who measures success of baby rearing in terms of not holding too often and not feeding too often

I have read the thread (for once). I just don't agree with the premise that success is judged by detachment.

adults are conditioned by 20 or 30 years not to mention all their hormones to sleep at night when it's dark and be awake in the daylight.

it's not surprising that most mothers want their children to sleep (whether with them or seperately) we know they need to eat all through the night cause their tummies are tiny but that doesn't mean that our bodies would not rather be sleeping at night.

it's not selfish or detached or cold to want to get back into the natural sleeping/waking cycle of a human adult.

Allowing a toddler to breastfeed on demand is a demand. It's a need until they are regulating their appetite a bit better (1 year old?) - once they could actually wait but won't, it's a demand. That's not to say you mustn't meet it - but not if you don't want to.

And I think cosleeping, demand feeding and general pandering does make for a spoilt child if you constantly do it to the detriment of everyone else in the family - including yourself.

I would leave a child to cry to have a quick shower, not a long bath. I would leave a child to whine for a few minutes at nap time while I have a bath, but if it escalated to screaming I would get out of the bath. I am a lone parent and if I hadn't left ds2 to cry sometimes, I wouldn't have got a shower or a meal for days.

I actually hate the sound of screaming babies and will do nearly anything to avoid it. Babies tend to get their own way with me (as they should) but they should also be shown that there are other ways that may be unfamiliar but don't actually hurt. Such as being put down on the floor while I wash up.

I think I have come across as harsher than I actually was with my children. On the RL, non-MN scale I am on the pandery end of baby care

I also didn't follow a routine at all. I met my own needs as well as the needs of everyone else in the family.

I was, psychologically and emotionally, VERY fragile after having ds2. Being able to put him down and leave him to himself for a bit wasn't selfishness, it was medical necessity.

thanks for clarifying abit there, with the toddler feeding bit and all that, have you actually extended bfeed? Reason i ask is because it really isnt a 'demand', it is usually a request/need for comfort when they've hurt themselves or when tired. It is a quick way of meeting their needs and they are settled happily and content to then toddle off to do more busying. It certainly isnt about spoiling them. Also the co-sleeping (we sleep in same room but not always in same bed) that too isnt about pandering but comfort and convenience.

Pandering would be letting them have treats like chocolate everytime they asked, not showing them the boundries in terms of how to treat others (i.e. not clobbering eachother and pinching toys of eachother).. that is how i see pandering anyway.

The other stuff i just see as being a mum and responding how it feels right. I am not a single parent though and also have a lovely older son who watches little bother brother whilst i have quick shower. However when ds1 was small and ex-dp was not there i did have him in bathroom with me in a bouncy seat when small. With baths, we bathed together and with ds2 i do this too but i can also have showers etc on own which i agree is lovely.

(on mn it isnt easy to give full picture, glad you are on the more 'pandery side' )

fluffles - that's an interesting point. Because of course the adult human body knows it has given birth. So, if we just went with the flow and really did sleep when the baby sleeps, would we feel a hell of a lot better for it? I mean, if you just accepted that babies don't sleep for eight hours on the trot and made your lifestyle fit your newborn baby's, rather than trying to get all the other stuff done? (I'm vaguely imagining back in tribal history presumably all the other women around would have looked after the new mother and baby, hence no housework/gathering food needed doing.)

ah ha, never thought of that edam. I do sleep when ds sleeps in day so i am not a vile sleep deprived cow (not because i am lazy, honest )

I agree very interesting edam. I also find that cosleeping reduces tiredness massively, often I wouldn't remember in the morning how often I had breastfed in the night as I did it more or less subconsciously.

Sleeping in itself is not detached, but sleeping away from the parents is. It is my firm belief that babies are meant to sleep close to their parents. Our ancestors would have kept their offspring close to keep them safe from predators.

Well MorrisZapp I have to disagree - by all means don't judge others, but you have to remember that humans are mammals, and in order to develop properly we need contact and milk when we are very young.

Humans babies don't regulate their temperature very well, and so need to be with a bigger heat source, and they can't very well forage for fish-fingers in the cold cabinets in the supermarket now can they

So by all means don't judge others, but 'Do What You Like' as a MO is not accurate, or right.

There are ways to ensure that your babe survives, and that their / his /her/ basic biological needs are met: heat; feeding; grooming; their emotional / neurological needs: face to face time and touching.
These basic needs cannot be ignored - you cannot just Do What You Like.

If a mother needs down time, she must factor that in also, but the babe is not the one to pay for it by being left alone without comfort before they are happy to be left alone.
I read those accounts of the Rhesus monkeys with horror when I studied psychology Squiglet. I thought those experiments were so cruel - I don't know if they would be allowed to repeat them, and yet we talk about leaving a babe to cry themselves to sleep without pause for thought it seems.

'Doing what you like' is not best practice if it doesn't take into account that we are talking about baby mammals here.

The first year of a baby's life is such a short period of time in the grand scheme of things, and it's so important in so many ways for human / mammalian development: it's a shame if a mother is not able to be responsive to her babe and meet his /her /their needs, and new mothers often are left alone to do this most important job, which is also a shame, and short sighted.

We need more support for new mothers, and less judgment, but we should also remember that even though we live in an industrialized environment, we are not robots: we are mammals, and mammals have basic needs, all the more so when we are very young.
Leaving baby mammals to cry themselves to sleep for example is totally unheard of in the natural world, and research has shown that those who are left to their own devices at this vulnerable time develop behavioural / social problems later on in life.

Good luck with TTCing MorrisZapp.

Emkana - i agree.

It was miserable old queen victoria who started the whole babies sleeping in a basket thing....

I must post my only experience of a demand fed cosleeping constantly carried toddler, because it did form my opinion quite drastically.

When she was born, she screamed. She screamed constantly, and would never ever ever be put down. In my opinion the older child has been neglected emotionally because of the demands his younger sibling put on their mother.

This child screamed if the mum tried to cook, so they live off sandwiches. The mum didn't get a shower for a week at a time - the baby didn't like the bathroom. Ditto the older child. Until the child was 3, everything, EVERYTHING was dropped if she demanded the breast (by screaming at the top of her voice) - meals, playing with older child, conversations. I have seen extended breastfeeding (2 yos) done very seamlessly and well by a few people I know but this was not it!

She coslept in with her mother - father had to sleep on the sofa as she didn't like him being in the bed and would scream until he left. She woke every 90 minutes to be fed.

My friends eyes were often hanging out of her sockets with stress, and exhaustion, and physical self neglect, and I am convinced about 50% of it could have been avoided if she had only let the baby get used to sitting on it's own for five minutes in a safe place while she took care of someone else (including herself) for a while.

Excellent post zazen.

that rhesus monkey experiment makes me cry