why is the "success" of life with a baby always measured by how detached you get them to be?

[emkana]

You know - not held too often, sleeping in own bed/own room, not feeding too often...

case in point is my friend with six week old baby, she is desperately trying (and to be fair to her succeeding) to get him to sleep through the night and fall asleep by himself, and not to "give in " too much to him during the day either -

I don't get it! Don't get me wrong, I think she has to do what feels right for her but I question whether she is doing it because that's what she wants to do or because that's what her mother/her sister/society keep telling her she should be doing...

Yes, what betty said.

By the way, I've never met anyone in rl who talked about wanting independent 4 months old. Or not keen to cuddle their babies all day long.
But I've been there, desperate for 3 hrs of unbroken sleep, or 10 minutes to take a shower, it is not wrong - if you don't have any kind of outside help - to think/dream of ways to get a bit of time out from the constant caring of a baby /toddler (which is lovely)

I find the whole making babies independent rather bizarre. I was a complete soft touch with my two. When they both started nursery at 3yrs they both left me without a backward glance.

They will be independent when they are ready and no amount of training will hurry this process up.

FWIW cuddling a sleeping baby is a moment of pure joy and I actually feel sorry for any parent who has never experienced it. It is true the best things in life are free.

But I've never met anyone who;s never cuddled their tiny babies to sleep! Where are these people?

All of my friends franca. Honestly, they think I am weird.

Even with newborns? That's bizarre. I was overly keen when mine were tiny. Then, I started to dream about my independence when they were a bit older

I have met loads because "it is important to start good sleeping habits early". They tend to be the sort of person who uses the phrase "rod for your own back" every second sentence.

Not sure if this entirely links to the thread, but DD has been happy to go to/be with anyone since birth and since a few weeks is certainly happier to be stretching out on her own than in my arms.

Everyone has said how great this is. Whilst she was lying on the changing mat after being changed a HV even said (and I quote)"isn't it great, its like she doesnt even know you're her mother, she'd be happy enough with anyone"!!

I know in some ways this makes me lucky, especially as I've started using Keep In Touch days to slowly go back to work and she is happy without me. But I would like her to be happier WITH ME!! And being cuddled etc etc.

I suppose you don't always get what you want (and also I know if she was grizzly and wanting me all the time I'd probably be complaining too )

I think there is a stiff upper lip attitude

You know in Bali a child doesn't even touch the ground until they are 6 months - they are constantly in someone's arms. At that time they are fed a little bit of rice and welcomed into the human race - before that they are looked on as Divine, not part of our Universe at all.

I certainly held my Babe for about a year - I wore her, day and night, and now she is confident and independent at 5, and like your DCs CrackFox, skipped off into nursery at 3 without a glance.

I used to HATE the question: "So, is DD sleeping through for you yet?"
Like she was supposed to be aware enough to do me a favour...

And no, DD didn't 'sleep through' for years.
I don't think of my efforts as a failure, even though she wasn't what is called a 'good' baby, whatever that is.

I don't see how the OP has anything to do with detachment. The poster's friend might just have a baby like my DS that needs to be ruled with a rod of iron. DS did not like to be cuddled especially at night. Still now, at 4, he loves to cuddle on his own terms but will not accept it being forced on him.

Giving in to him made all of us miserable, we were all much happier when we realised that he wanted to play and get out of bed in the night and didn't actually need anything. 'Giving in' to him always made him a million times more upset.

I agree that babies and toddlers strive for independence, and whilst some people do try (and fail, usually) to rush that, some parents definitely do undermine that to serve their own need to be needed. For example, parent has difficulty leaving toddler at playgroup, makes a big meal of the goodbye, child picks up on the ambivalence and thinks there is something to worry about, gets upset.

I also know a couple of people who were not able to let anyone else care for their child, because they had an experience of not being well-loved themselves as children and (I believe) created an anxious, insecure baby who could only be settled by them.

That is slightly off topic, maybe, but I wanted to respond to CrackFox said.

Tryharder Co-sleeping, bf on demand and carrying in a sling were not instinctive and natural to me with my first child (Actually, I have never been able to sleep with a child in bed with me). I was able to behave more instinctively with my second - actually listen to what he was trying to tell me.

aoifesmama, my son was like that too!
He needs me more at 5 than he ever seemed to as a baby.
We could never co-sleep as he wouldn't sleep with us. I find it hard to believe now but I was talking to dh the other day about it and he has a clearer memory than me. He just wouldn't settle

Oh please! I totally disagree. I'm childless atm (ttc) but have many close friends, sister, SIL etc who have battled through all the stages of pg and babycare.

What rot to suggest that wanting the baby to sleep for longer is about separation and 'building Empire'. These are just normal women, flawed like everybody else, doing their damndest to keep body and soul together when faced with the most life altering event they've ever been through.

I've seen too many women I love driven half mad by the challenges of motherhood to dream of suggesting they are cold, hard, or whatever by daring to try to snatch some semblance of a life for themselves after DC arrive.

These are women that would literally fight for their DC, die for their DC just like you would.

They'd also like more then one hour's sleep at a time. What's the effing problem with that?

Christ on a bike. Before I came to this forum I just thought that women were getting on with it, doing their best etc but now I know they are doing their best and slating other hard working mothers as they go.

Do what you like, and don't judge others.

Yes, my dc had different personalities. Ds wanted to be held the whole time. Dd was quite happy on her own. I remember that when she was only a few days old I left her awake in her pram to go to the toilet and found her asleep, which would have never ever happened with ds.
By the way, I'm now broody at thinking to cuddle a small baby to sleep. awwwwwwwwwwwwww!

each to their own as someone has already said. Whatever routines you get them into they always throw a spanner in the works somewhere along the line. Ultimately we do have to get babies and children into a routine other wise how would they ever go on to school and jobs?

When I have a baby it's likely I will go back to work after 6 or so months so I hope by then there'll be some semblance of a routine.

"They'd also like more then one hour's sleep at a time. What's the effing problem with that? "

Totally MZ. I'm not ashamed to admit, that after having loved to cuddle my newborns, bf them at any time of the night etc etc etc, after some months I was desperate for a few hrs of sleep. Really desperate.

Fantastic post, Morris, I completely agree.

There's nothing wrong with needing some sleep. What I objected to was being made to feel that I had failed because my six week old son didn't sleep for eight hours straight.

There is a LOT of time between 6 weeks old (say) and starting school at 5!

Plenty of time to get into routines, I would have said.

OP - I agree. I find it totally baffling. Neighbour leaves 7/8 week old to cry regularly and has done so since her dp went back to work when lo was 2 weeks old. To be fair think she has other issues going on too. Another friends sister has 2 week old and kept baby awake all day in attempt to get him to sleep through night.. 2 weeks old! Very shocked, friend tried to put her straight tho.

It does seem like a huge competition.. blah blah, "my baby sleeps through, my baby doesnt need comofrt to sleep, you feed you baby to sleep?? Cosleep? wtf is wrong with you? You still bfing a toddler!!"

What in fact i do is follow my dc's cues and that includes cue for independence. But forcing it on them too soon makes them insecure and unhappy. Comfort and company is a basic need as is food. Anyone read Bowlbys theories of attachment, looked at the rhesus monkey experiment?

Why parenting has become such an obsession with forming routine and control stems from the 1940's and 50's when many women had to go to work due to impact of the ww. It was down to economic reasons, not down to the childs needs at all.

I think the thing is with motherhood, especially new motherhood, no matter what you do, someone will come farting along to tell you're doing it wrong, that you are a Bad Woman and Selfish even if you're feeindg the child your own minced intestines because some or other 'expert' has advocated it. So on the great polarizing issues like BF/FF or controlled crying, just about everyone not only feels the need to defend their own choices but to have a go at the opposite choice to theirs.
Just remember this: if you're not drop-kicking the baby down the garden on a regular basis or leaving it in the freezer cabinet at Tescos, you're probably doing a reasonably good job.

does leaving them in marks and sparks freezer cabinet make you a better parent and asda worse?

I have known women still in the delivery room, baby less than an hour hold who don't want to pick the baby up when it cries in case it 'gets into bad habits'.

I've actually found this whole thing more annoying with a 3/4 yr old than with a baby.

DS's problem was that he could not understand why people would be annoyed if he did X, and no amount of explaining, removing, punishing etc would help. You could remove every toy that kid had and he wouldn't have got it. I suspect a good series of smacks would have modified his personality but NO.

It seemed that all the other solutions involved treating him as FAR MORE emotionally advanced than your normal post-toddler/young child would be.

ANd now he's grown into himself, what a difference. He seems genuinely happy.

You spoke a mouthful SGB.

At the end of the day, MN is a self selecting group of people who are generally informed, caring, interested etc and their kids will be fine, regardless of hair splitting over all these ishoos.

I don't think it's about fostering independence. It's probably more about getting some sleep and some time to do things like the washing up without having to cradle a baby at the same time. I personally would have loved to have had DD in the same bed as us as it is so cosy when we nap together, but I was worried about DH squashing her as he sleeps so soundly. She slept in our room in a moses basket or cot until she was just over six months old and I was quite sad to move her into her own room. If DH is away, I put a mattress down in her room so I don't get lonely on my own. I never did manage to BF whilst asleep though - too uncomfortable and she couldn't get a good grip. Maybe next time.