why is the "success" of life with a baby always measured by how detached you get them to be?

[emkana]

You know - not held too often, sleeping in own bed/own room, not feeding too often...

case in point is my friend with six week old baby, she is desperately trying (and to be fair to her succeeding) to get him to sleep through the night and fall asleep by himself, and not to "give in " too much to him during the day either -

I don't get it! Don't get me wrong, I think she has to do what feels right for her but I question whether she is doing it because that's what she wants to do or because that's what her mother/her sister/society keep telling her she should be doing...

[ChunkyMonkeysMum]

That's the same as me woozlet. I didn't use CC, but putting DS's down awake just seemed to work. I think it helped that from day one I had a moses basket in my living room & after a feed during the day if baby was still awake, I would put him in the basket & he would spend a while looking round & eventually go off to sleep, so I just carried that on at bedtime too & luckily it worked for me.

[bewareofthedog]

I think the problem is that somewhere along the line, we humans have lost our instinct for parenting. Shelves in bookshops are dedicated to telling us how to parent - when and where our babies should sleep, how we should feed them, how we should discipline them. It seems we no longer trust our own instincts.

I've heard many mothers say that leaving their baby to cry was the hardest thing they've ever done, that they cried along with them, but after a week or two, once their child 'learned' to fall asleep alone, it was well worth it.

Surely something that makes you feel so terrible is wrong? Yet my hv encouraged me to leave ds1 crying until he fell asleep when he was 12 weeks old. I ignored the advice because it just didn't feel right.

Why are we the only mammals who don't use our instinct in our parenting?

[ChunkyMonkeysMum]

bewareofthedog - I have always used my instincts when it comes to parenting. I can quite honestly say that I have never read a parenting book or magazine purely because I didn't want to be influenced & wanted to make decisions for myself. I also didn't want to feel like I'd failed if something suggested in one of these books or magazines didn't work for me.
This is where parenting styles differ. Leaving my babies to cry wasn't the hardest thing I've ever done. If for one minute I thought they were genuinely distressed rather than reacting to change, then I would have tried a different approach. Don't get me wrong, I never left them crying for long, I actually didn't have to as I was lucky that they were both able to settle themselves quite quickly. On the very odd occasion DS2 has cried and not appeared to be able to settle himself, I have gone & got him and brought him downstairs for a while, then tried again a bit later.
As someone else said, the child is not going to be scarred when they're older by being left to cry for a little while as a baby.
If it is not for you & you wouldn't be able to do this, then that's obviously fine, but why criticise those who can do it? It doesn't make us bad mothers.

[colditz]

Because our instinct is not always right.

Should a clinically depressed mother follow her 'instinct' to shut a screaming baby in the cupboard under the stairs and go to Tesco's?

[colditz]

"Leave to cry" is an emotive term, bringing pictures of sobbing vomitting blue newborns into our minds.

Not furious 11 month old babies who are quite simply angry.

YOu mothers who practice attachment parenting - why are you so sure you are the only mothers who can 'read' your children? I could read mine very well, and I could easily tell the difference between "I'm frightened" "I'm starving" and "I'm ^bored!"

Isn't it a little arrogant to assume everyone who leaves a child to cry is grimly ignoring every need the child ever has?

[ChunkyMonkeysMum]

Hear hear !!

[francaghostohollywood]

The shelves of parenting books is mostly caused by the fact that we don't live in real communities anymore or in big families with different generations under the same roof.
Would you live with your mil 24/7? I wouldn't mind to be honest, but I suspect that the feeling on this is a bit different on mn

[ChunkyMonkeysMum]

Oh no, no, no....NO !!!! I could not live with my MIL

[francaghostohollywood]

Told ya!

[ChunkyMonkeysMum]

Quite a scary thought actually, because if I did live with my MIL, then my DS's would be going to bed with brandy in their bottles because "it didn't do mine any harm"

[ChunkyMonkeysMum]

Oh, and she used to close the door & turn the radio up so she didn't have to hear them cry !! But not because she didn't like to hear them cry, but because it irritated her

Think I'll stick to my own parenting style

[bewareofthedog]

Ok, so instinct isn't always right, but we've almost got to the point where we believe that following our instinct is wrong. It was my instinct to co-sleep, respond to cries / whinges, bf on demand and I was (and still am, but I'm confident enough to respond now) often told that I'm raising a needy child and that I'll regret it.

Why criticise either 'method'?

[MillyMollyMoo]

People critize what they are afraid of or the unknown, imagine if the other way was the right one and you were doing it all wrong (applied to either side of the fence), that's quite a scarry thought so far better to label, condemn the other.

[ChunkyMonkeysMum]

But I don't actually think there are many people who actually are criticising. Most people have said it's down to the mother to do what she thinks is best for her & her baby.
TBH there has been more criticism of people who will leave a baby to cry etc than those who won't.
I don't think either way is the right way, just that what I did was the right thing for me & my DS's.

Now, my MIL's way......that's a different matter

[bewareofthedog]

Although, to answer the op, I do agree that 'independence' in babies is something that is celebrated. Babies who sleep 8 hours at night, entertain themselves and don't cry to be held are often described as 'good' while those who wake every two hours, feed constantly and cry when put down are often described as 'needy' which has negative connotations (which is strange in itself seeing as babies do need their mothers!).

My pet hate is the question 'Is s/he a good baby?'. 'Good'??

[ChunkyMonkeysMum]

Yeah I can see what you're saying botd.
As for your pet hate question, just always answer "yes thanks"

[piscesmoon]

'Obviously those of us who (Jamie, Chunky, Pointy, pisces, myself) have used this parenting style are going to put our points across, too- we would not consider ourselves 'detatched' from our DCs. '

I find it very strange to be described as detached. I was very emotionally attached to my babies and I never left them to cry. They were quite happy getting themselves off to sleep and it was lovely to hear them babbling happily to themselves. They knew that if they cried I would go to them. I never know quite what 'good baby' is supposed to mean. If the question upsets you -just say 'yes' and pass on.
A family's sleeping arrangements just need to suit them. My DH takes a long time to get back to sleep if he wakes in the night. He was commuting and getting up at 5.30am when they were babies-there is no way that he could have coped with a baby in the bed. If I was supposed to sleep with my baby to be 'a good mother' it would have meant that my poor DH would have had to have been banished to a different room for about 5 yrs! I was a SAHM so I jumped out of bed at the first cry so that they didn't wake DH -it seemed only fair because I was able to catch up during the day.
I knew lots of families that co slept-that was fine-I wouldn't dream of criticising if it suited them but neither did I expect them to think it a superior way of parenting.
I read very few baby books-in fact I think most people would be better off without them!
There is a lot more to parenting than having aa, literally , attached baby. Some people are not baby people and much better when they are older, some people are at their best with teenagers.
You can chat to an 18 yr old and you can't possible tell whether they were bf or ff or wether they co slept or not. (You can tell if they had an appalling childhood-but we are not talking about that in this thread-just different parenting styles).
I know someone who did all the extended bf, co sleeping bit and yet when she was on her own in a depressed, emotional state her adult DCs were leaving her on her own for Christmas. My mother had problems bf and only did it for a few months, and we slept on our own, but there is absolutely no way that my brothers or I would leave her alone at Christmas.
I only wrote that bit to show that it is nothing to do with how you treat a baby-it is only one small part of your relationship.
There is nothing wrong with someone wanting their baby to get to sleep by themselves-and stay asleep through the night-and I don't see why it should be assumed that it is pressure from other people. There is nothing wrong with people cuddling their baby to sleep and having it in the same bed-equally it is nothing to do with others.
Motherhood isn't a competition!

[nooka]

I'm another non reader of books. I like my non-fiction to be evidence based, and child rearing books seem to have a total lack of that. I watched other parents in my family and decided to do things pretty much the way my mother did. My big sister on the other hand read lots of books and decided to do demand feeding and the more baby led style. I have friends who tried all sorts of parenting styles and I watched them too and adopted a few bits and pieces from them along the way too (and vice versa). My babies were not "good". But ds was decidedly easy, and dd was decidedly not. Just their characters I think, and it's swapped around as they have grown up, and no doubt will do so again later.

I am curious about how people manage to breastfeed in their sleep - also how they would know they had done so? (I am genuinely curious about this btw, not trying to be catty) I never managed to breastfeed lying down (tried it a couple of times, very uncomfortable and milk got all over the bed, which was pretty yucky, and meant the bed needed changing), so always preferred to feed my children in a comfy chair, which I suppose it one reason why I liked them in a different room, as it made things much simpler for me, putting the light on etc (I can only sleep in pretty much pitch black dark). I just think these things depend on so many variables.

Oh, and I don't know why the demand trend has been associated with a post war need to have women working, when the need for women to work was strongest during the war, and then actively discouraged after the war, when jobs needed to go to returning soldiers, and there weren't so many of them. Also outside of the wealthy, most women have always worked (either taking the baby with them or leaving them with older relatives or children).

[bewareofthedog]

Nooka, I would often describe myself as feeding 'in my sleep', although it's not quite the truth because as you rightly say, how would I know I had fed if I were asleep?

I rouse when dd needs feeding. I'm very aware of getting into position and latching her on, but I drift back off to sleep whilst feeding her. That's what I mean when I say I feed in my sleep.

[DuelingFANGo]

"We are probably the only mammal species that routinely sleeps apart from it's young.

I think co sleeping/bf on demand/carrying baby around in a sling is the instinctive and natural way to parent to be quite honest. However, if you admit to any or all of the following, you are setting yourself up for a host of negatives comments, usually involving rods on backs.

I know one or two women who have refused EVER to have their children in bed with them even if said child/baby is sick or distressed - I think they are weird and "hard" if you want my opinion. "

thought this was an interesting comment and an interesting thread given the recent news about cot-death and co-sleeping.

Are we all just finding sticks to beat eachother with?

[piscesmoon]

We are the only mammals who fuss about what other mothers do!!

[EdgarAllenPoo]

i think the idea of instinct is a bit wank to be fair...animals don't parent well when moved away from other parenting animals (looking at the difficulty involved in getting large primates to breed and look after babies in captivity shows this very clearly). childrearing is learnt.

i don't think i would consider myself less attached to them for having occasionally let them yell instead of dropping everything (including some very important mumsnetting) to attend to them.

[Lerato]

I agree with georgimama. I was much more tired with dd1 when she woke less but slept in a cot than with dd2 who woke / fed more but co-slept which meant that I never really woke at night.

[ChunkyMonkeysMum]

I think it all depends on the person tbh. I am not a good sleeper anyway so could never have settled having one of my babies in the bed with me, so I definitely got more sleep by putting them in their own cots than I would having them in bed with me.

(Plus DH snores like a pig so would probably have kept me and the baby up all night )

[ChunkyMonkeysMum]

Emkana - Are you there ????????
Just stumbled across a post by sleepwhenidie & it appears she is trying to get in touch with you. Here's the link.