why is the "success" of life with a baby always measured by how detached you get them to be?

[emkana]

You know - not held too often, sleeping in own bed/own room, not feeding too often...

case in point is my friend with six week old baby, she is desperately trying (and to be fair to her succeeding) to get him to sleep through the night and fall asleep by himself, and not to "give in " too much to him during the day either -

I don't get it! Don't get me wrong, I think she has to do what feels right for her but I question whether she is doing it because that's what she wants to do or because that's what her mother/her sister/society keep telling her she should be doing...

And there is the point that the kind of sleep we are used to - deep, uninterrupted, largely threat-free - is unnatural. There's some suggestion that it's the product of having been encouraged to sleep deeply as babies, but that's not really testable.

The sleep during co-sleeping is different - lighter and more responsive to the baby - and I wonder if a lot of people feel shortchanged somehow if they don't get their hours of deep sleep. I know I didn't sleep "well" for months, years after ds was born, I was so responsive to every sound he made. I felt like I was lacking somehow, that nothing was working for us - in fact he slept fine, I was just in a normal state!

zazen - i very much doubt they would be allowed to repeat those experiments and it is a shame that research is wasted when you have 'gurus' spouting so much shite about controlled crying and sleep training etc etc. I must remind myself that all i can do is what i feel is best for my little ones and share what i have learnt in the hope that it helps someone have the courage to go against the trend of gf type parenting techniques. Right i should go to bed and sleep soundly hearing the lovely soft breathing of my beautiful sleeping toddler boy He is so scrummy.

How old is that child now, and how does she behave now?

Ds was and is an extremely demanding child too, and I have often come to the brink of what I can bear, but now that he is 3.3 I can see how it has paid off because he is now happier and more confident than he has ever been.

The one thing I made sure though was that the dd's still got a good chunk of my attention too.

Enjoy, Squiglet!
I'm off to the tree tops too

I must add that I am not into leaving tiny babies to scream for long periods of time (which to me is longer than it takes to rinse the shampoo out of my hair).

There is amiddle ground. I would be as distressed as anyone to hear a tiny baby screaming it's lungs out into the night, (I would be deeply upset), but I also am not remotely distressed by the 8 month old whiny "It's not bedtime, I'm BORED!!!" grumbling that ds2 used to do.

colditz - that sounds like a tough time for the whole family, but reading betrween the lines i wouldnt say it was down to co-sleeping and breastfeeding. Will come back to this but need to go to bed now. x

I don't know why we have the expectation that there is 'the method' that is best. All we can say is that different methods suit different people. Babies are also very much individuals and what suits one baby doesn't suit another. I am always surprised that someone wants to impose what suits them on someone else and insists that because it is better for them it must be better for everyone.
I had somewhere between the two. I didn't do co sleeping for a variety of reasons, I need my sleep, I would be frightened of squashing and I like personal space. (I can't speak for myself as a baby, but certainly from the age I can remember, about 3 yrs I loved my own bed.) However I didn't do controlled crying either. I only breast fed up to about 1 yr-I simply wanted my body back! I don't think this is selfish-they had breast milk when they needed it.
To pretend to be something I am not isn't going to make me a good mother. I am much better with sleep, peace and quiet and personal space.
I am not saying that this is better -I just know that it was better for me.
I wonder whether motherhood was always so competitive, with mothers telling other mothers what is best? Perhaps people are more insecure these days and have to not only mother but prove they the best mother.
Do what suits you-and don't be put off by other people imposing their beliefs.A happy, relaxed mother makes for a happy, relaxed baby.

Child is now 3.5. She's same age as my ds2.

She screams like a war siren if she doesn't get her own way, she hits her mother, she snatches from her older brother (who is told to "Just let her have it, she's crying!"), she still wakes several times a night and her mother still isn't allowed to leave the room without her unless her dad is there - the dad who still doesn't get to sleep in his own bed because the toddler/preschooler doesn't like it.

Her mum is still ragged with sleep deprivation although has got better at cooking and taking a shower - but she's had to wait 3.5 years for the privilige. the father is pissed off with it to the point that he's given up engaging with any form of discipline. The brother has taken to playing in his room so he can play without being snatched from/screamed at/hit.

She's learned no independence and precious few social skills. It may have been her base personality, but I'm not convinced that the situation couldn't have been improved.

Actually, you're right, this isn't about extended feeding or cosleeping at all. I know children who were breastfed until four and are delightful. I know co-sleepers who aren't clingy (my ds2 at 1 year old had always slept in a moses basket ON my bed.)

This girl's mother has been worn down by the constant screaming and I don't think she has ever set enough boundries. And I think now she feels it's going to be a gargantuan task to challenge her behavior, so she won't.

All assumption on my part but I do know this woman quite well.

i was happy that baby slept - whther he did so in my bed or his cot was pretty irrelevant. I always brag remark mine slept well, and people don't generally ask further than that.

i don't think its purely detatchment - people are always keen to show how much they lve their DCS, that they enjoy a kissy cuddle. a work colleaugue was actually ashamed to admit getting baby out o her room at 6 weeks - because she couldn't sleep with him in there. People want to be perceived as loving, and well-bonded to their baby.

Breastfeeding, depending on your milieu, people will say almost apologetically if they did so a short time...or not.

letting baby wail whilst you finish a task is one of those things that allows you to get life sorted - get clothes washed, dog fed, other children attended to etc etc. to criticise someone for taking a bath whilst baby makes tired crying noises and settles to sleep is v. wrong- don't do it if you don't want to but recognise the validity of someone elses choice. my baby is v.v. loud so always sounds like he's being killed....still that can just mean he's tired...

i don't actually think that has much to do with 'independance' as the whole notion of 'independance' when applied to a baby is pretty laughable.

personally i measure my 'success' purely in terms of how i feel about it all after bedtime.

I'll be trying what your friend does with their bub! I nursed DD to sleep and had to have help come sort out her sleeping, it was hell, at one point I couldn't even sit and nurse her or she would cry. Made it so hard for myself, as hard as it's going to be I'm going to sway to more like that method, just put bub down awake, I don't think we will be that detached, I'll only be putting bub to sleep when it's time and it'll still get cuddles with feeding and interaction at other times. I just know through my own experience I went about it the wrong way with DD and I work on that area and be more liek your friend!

I think that you have to recognize that different babies and different parents are different. I had one baby who liked to be swaddled and left on his own to go to sleep, who enjoyed rolling around on the floor and was all in all very independent. He did scream a bit when left to go to sleep, but to a definite rhythm, so that you could pretty much predict when he found his thumb, and when he'd go to sleep (took maybe 5 mins). If you tried holding him during that time he'd flail around and not go to sleep at all, with the result being one tired and cranky baby. With dd on the other hand she was very very clingy, she'd cry for what seemed like ages (not in a screamy way, just persistent) and not only did she want to be held, but she wanted to be walked around (she'd scream in your arms if you tried to sit down, or just stopped walking/swaying etc).

For me, ds was an easy baby, and dd was a nightmare. Now if I'd been a isn't it lovely my baby needs me so sort of person, then I might well have felt the reverse, but I'm not terribly keen on babies (I much prefer children) and I found dd suffocating and frustrating. It's all very well to say that everyone should love to have their child attached to them at all times, but what if you hate that? If you find permanent feeding exhausting and sharing a bed = no sleep at all? I watched my big sister and my aunt take a demand/attachment approach, and saw how totally exhausted they were and thought not for me.

So I don't think it is always societies expectations, after all there is no one way that mothers are told to do things - the one consistency is the inconsistency it seems to me.

Oh and if you want to think about the equivalency to the Bowlby experiment (which should never have been allowed, and I thought the big study was undertaken by Harlow in any case - Bowlby looked at children separated from their mothers in hospital, whereas Harlow removed monkeys from their mothers entirely, and did things like hold them in isolation for years. He seemed to quite enjoy torture too. Totally barbaric - he even referred to himself as a sadist) then look at children who are seriously neglected (think cupboard children or Romanian orphanages) or children who are separated entirely from their families with no loving substitutes (as used to happen if they were hospitalised for any reason, although I think for full attachment disorders this would need to be for significant periods of time) not parents who think it is OK to allow their children to wail for a few minutes before they go to sleep whilst otherwise meeting their physical and emotional needs. I doubt very much that you could tell with an average reception class who had had strict routines and who was "worn" - or everyone in between for that matter.

If you love having your child attached to you then go for it, but don't describe those that don't as cruel or say that your way is best, or make out that her children are going to be deeply scarred. Because for another mother it might be a nightmare that drives her to the end of her tether. Likewise the other way round of course.

Colditz, do you think that mother is more than just sleep-deprived - maybe there's a bit of PTSD or something?

I only ask because MIL still bears the scars of her DS2, my BIL, and he is 36 now. Apparently he screamed and screamed, no matter what she did. For years. My DH wasn't like that as a child - BIL just came out that way. I didn't realise how badly it had affected her until one day, when DS was about 3, and I was calmly removing him from a typical 3-yr-old tantrum scenario, and she burst into tears and started begging me not to make him cry more (I don't know what she thought I was going to do! I was taking him firmly to his room to calm him down!).

She had such a haunted look at that moment. We talked about it later and she said she just cannot bear the memories of BIL crying and crying and nothing she did made any difference. (He's still a bit of an arse now, tbh...)

Sorry, I assumed we're all intelligent here and didn't need to caveat everything with 'within reason'.

I don't think parents should just do what they like. I think they should love, attend to and care for their babies, in the way that best suits them and the child.

I personally find it deeply patronising to be told that the reason that some mothers do x is because of pressure from society and GF culture etc etc.

None of my friends who are mothers have heard of GF or know the term CC - in real life, mothers are just getting on with things and doing their best. It's only in the bubble of MN that women are frantically berating each other (or making sad faces for each others children, which imo is worse) for making choices that most of society didn't even realise were remotely controversial or worthy of analysis.

Exactly MZ - nobody outside this forum bats much of an eyelid at my parenting, which while not optimal is not too shoddy!

I agree with nooka.

I have three kids - they have all been entirely different wrt breastfeeding length (13 months, 2 and a half years, 6 weeks - in order of birth), sleeping arrangements - which varied from in an amby sleeping through from 6 weeks to 3 years of co-sleeping. Settling was different. From a child who needed a kiss goodnight and would settle himself, to one who needed a bfeed then a grizzle, to one who -during the day- needed to be in a sling to go to sleep.

All these different methods have been child led. I didn't have the children and decide 'right I am into AP/cc/' or whatever - we just followed the lead of the individual child. And as you can see from above each child was very different indeed.

I think whatever works for the family in question is the right way. And by family I mean Mum, baby, siblings and Dad.

I was faaaaaar too lazy to bother with a routine and bottle feeding. For me the best way to maximise my sleep (and therefore everyone else's happiness ). Was to sling baby, co-sleep and breastfeed on demand.

My best friend prefers a nice tight routine, it works for her. So what is the difference?

Being able to sleep while baby is breastfeeding is a skill I recommend everyone obtains if it is all possible!

saintlydamemrsturnip How did you like the Amby? We are thinking of getting one for this bub because DS is still using the cot as a toddler bed and would like not to have to buy him a bed until after we are back in Oz. Did your bub use it for the full 12 months or so?

Most of us find our own middle ground though, don't we?

I co-slept and breastfed my babies to sleep, but I sure as dammit did everything I could to get them sleeping through the night as soon as possible - for my own sanity.

I hate all this talk of "routine" vs "AP" as though they are from two opposite ends of the spectrum

I loved the amby- ds2 would have benefitted from it too, so I wish we'd had it for him.

DS3 used it until he was about 10 or 11 months. I moved him into a cot because he was starting to try and turn over in his sleep - otherwise he would have stayed in there for longer. He would stir during the night then do this movement which bounced him back to sleep - it was very sweet. And you don't need a travel cot, can just take it with you.

Maybe she wants to make life easier for herself. Why have the baby up all night and sleeping in her bed, which can be dangerous, and will mean no quality time with DH, if she can get him sleeping in his own bed and sleeping through the night? Why have the baby 'need' her 24/7 for entertainment and comfort when the baby could self soothe and she could get some housework done? It's healthier to do things the way she has done them if you ask me. Which you has as this is AIBU.

So yes, I think YABU.

She might want more children, how can she do that when one depends on her so much? She is entitled to a life as well as the baby. She can still have her own time and space and maybe even work!

My DS is very happy and he doesn't need me to hold him 24/7. He LOVES being in his own cot in his own room and sleeps 6pm- 8am and wakes up chatting and laughing to himself.

I agree, emkana - I do think that mothers are judged on this. If a friend says that her baby sleeps through the night at 5 weeks I almost always say "how wonderful" when inside I'm think "but shouldn't that poor little thing be fed ever 3/4 hours still?". DS hated to be put down when he was very little and I was always carrying him round and I felt I had to apologise for it constantly. Much like I felt about bf until he was two. I think people think that you are being "soft" and indulgent if you don't encourage this so-called independence. I was always told that I was making a rod for my own back.

Having said all that, I do think that the middle ground is somewhat the norm in these times. I don't think the other extreme (for example, CC or CIO) is wholly accepted in modern society either.

The travel cot aspect is a big winner. It can be checked in as luggage can't it? Even 6 months use will get us through the last couple of months in our little flat, to Sydney and then I can buy DS a real bed and the cot will be available. Thanks for that. I think I will get one.

Restrains self from mad baby stuff buying spree...

I find the idea that you must get your babies to be 'independant' at 5 bleeping days etc. absolutely laughable and truly idiotic.
I WANT to cuddle my babies, I want snuggle up with them before sleep, I want to be there when they cry and make it all better. My kids know that and are, well, have always been very happy and contented.
It can come down to parents state of mind; nervous, angry and frusterated parents too often have grizzly, whingy clingy kids.
BTW, we have twins who had to be fed every 2 hours for the first few months, we have never had any help whatsoever as families live very far and yet we managed fine and it wasn't half as difficult as I expected it to be.
CC is simply wrong in my book, however, each its own and only parents can decide what's best for their baby.