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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to investigate whether my grandfather's widow has diddled my mum out of her inheritance?

143 replies

mrshibbins · 12/10/2009 17:18

background:

My mother is an only child. Her parents were divorced acrimoniously when she was a small child and she did not see her father again after the age of 12 because he ceased all contact when he remarried - to a girl only 4 years older than herself. This has always been a source of much self-doubt and unhappiness for her.

He had no further children. He died in 1977 and left a widow and a property.

I only found out all this because about 5 years ago I conducted a search at the Family Record Office. I found out from the death certificate that he had a widow, and from the electoral register that she still lived at the same address. I wrote to his widow, explaining who I was, and asking to meet her to talk because I really wanted to find out what had happened to my grandfather so that I could put my mother's mind at rest in some way.

I heard nothing for nearly 3 months, then she telephoned me (but withheld the number). We arranged to meet in town (she would not let me go to her home) outside Tie Rack at Liverpool St Station and from there we went to a pub and had lunch. She was very defensive throughout the meeting. She told me that when they met he was a very successful electrical engineer and doing very well for himself financially. After marrying she moved into his house - still occupied by her.

They had no children together and she had no children of her own. He subsequently a complete mental breakdown from which he never fully recovered and that he died relatively young in his early sixties.

I asked her why she had made no attempt to contact my mother when he died and she became even more defensive and said she did not understand why my mother would want to know. I made several attempts to contact her since this time, but she never replied to any of my letters or cards.

Then my OH recently suggested that the woman never contacted my mother when her father died because no will had been made and that my mother would have had some legacy coming to her. And thought that this is why she refuses to be in contact with us.

So, I started investigating and sure enough, no will was ever lodged with the Probate Office. I have contacted a solicitor and he has said that my mother would in this case should have inherited 50% of the property (on the death of his widow) and that the next step is to make enquiries with the land registry to see who the flat was registered to at the time of my grandfather's death.

I have no desire whatsoever to turf the woman out of her home, or to say to her 'what you did was wrong' because she must have been in a state. BUT eventually, when SHE dies, I want to make sure that my grandfather's property and remaining possessions should pass to my mother, and not to anyone else.

Am I doing the right thing in pursuing this?

OP posts:
diddl · 13/10/2009 06:47

I would have thought it was best to ask your mum before finding anything out.

If she´s entitled, you´re surely going to talk her into trying to get something,aren´t you,otherwise why bother at all?

And with your Mumbeing 71 and her stepmum 75,the main benefit would perhaps be to you!

GhostlyWhiteSeahorses · 13/10/2009 09:20

I thnk the OP is getting a pretty hard time here. To all those who say it's none of her business, ask yourself how would you feel if your DH left you and married another woman, then died and left nothing to your DC? I expect most people here wouldn't say that that was just fine by them. I think a lot of people would (quite naturally IMO) be hurt that their children had been excluded. So why is it not ok for the OP to feel that for her mother?

Having said that, I do agree that there is potential for a lot of trouble to get stirred up here. I think it would be best to sit down with your Mum and ask her what she wants do do about this. It is, after all, your mother who would have to bring a claim and who would have to deal with any fallout.

Morloth · 13/10/2009 09:22

What if he really didn't care about your Mum? Is your Mum up to having that confirmed? I actually think you have been treated pretty gently for AIBU.

But YABU to stir this up I think.

MorrisZapp · 13/10/2009 09:29

Of course OPs mum has every right to be hurt by what her father did. But I don't get the focus on his will (or lack of) and his assets. He didn't give her his time or his love for the greater part of her life, that is the hurtful part and I don't see how that could be rectified - he didn't leave a will so he didn't remember her in later life.

And I agree that it is highly unlikely ime that the widow would have signed anything to the effect that he had no descendants. Spouses get to stay in their deceased partner's house regardless of how many kids they have.

Added to this, OP's mum and the widow are near enough the same age. Why does OP think the widow will die first?

skihorse · 13/10/2009 09:38

YABU. To whom our relatives leave their money to is nobody's business but their own. Would you have felt like this if he'd left it to the RSPCA?

We have a not dissimilar story in my own family - which is perhaps why I feel so "zen" about it all. You're not doing yourself any favours though - it just makes you look like you yourself are after the cash.

mrshibbins · 13/10/2009 09:41

diddl - quite frankly, I find your insinuations offensive, aiming to hurt and very unnecessary. My mother is in extremely good health - better health than a lot of people here I would imagine - and I can't see her shuffling off this mortal coil for at last another 20-30 years. I am one of three children.

It quite often seems to me that there is an element of MN forumites who get a real kick out of finding someone on here that they can put down in quite a nasty personal manner without any deep knowledge of that person. Very disappointing.

I have spelled out my motivation here quite clearly - to put right a wrong done to my mother. This was a 'what would you do' question, because I was unsure if my course of action was sound from a 'putting the past right' point of view. I was never not intending to follow my mother's wishes and I have also made that clear. I just wanted to get my FACTS right before I talked to her about it or got her hopes up. But had huge doubt about the whole thing, which is why I had posted.

seabright - not sure if I believe someone is a property lawyer when they can't spell legitimately. I'll continue to take the advice of our family lawyer and will talk to my mother when she gets back from her travels (she's backpacking somewhere in Italy at the moment - that's how frail she is).

Thanks all of you who have posted helpful, thoughtful points of view to my genuine conundrum.

OP posts:
theyoungvisiter · 13/10/2009 09:44

Ghostly, I think the OP's feelings are natural and that she has been given a hard time for understandable resentment on behalf of her mother.

But what I, and I think lots of others, find odd, is that she is claiming to be doing all this for the sake of her mother, while doing absolutely nothing to find out if this in line with her mother's wishes.

I really don't buy the "I need to investigate this first in order to protect her" line, or the "naivety" angle. I think the OP is being arrogant and thoughtless in treating her mother like this - not intentionally, but that doesn't matter.

How would mrshibbins feel if her child, or husband, or friend went poking about in her past and contacting relatives without telling her? If it were me I would be livid - no matter whether the person had my best interests at heart or not. I would see it as high-handed, arrogant and patronising, to say the least.

pleasechange · 13/10/2009 09:45

ghostly - the reality is though, that when a parent dies, the 'child' is not usually a 'child' but an adult. And therefore, able to make their own decision about which way to proceed. In this situation, it really would be none of the mother's business

theyoungvisiter · 13/10/2009 09:47

x-posted with you mrshibbens, but please spell this out for me.

WHY do you need to get the facts right before you consult your mother? Why do you get to be the arbiter over what happens here?

The portrait you are painting of your mother is not someone who needs to be protected or coddled - so why are you taking the all the decision-making power out of her hands?

Surely it's easy enough to say "you know there might be a claim on his estate - do you want me to investigate this or would you rather leave it?"

pleasechange · 13/10/2009 09:50

agree with theyoungvisiter - this approach would give your mum her right to decide. If you are going looking for more evidence before you broach the subject with her, then it really does look like you are trying to influence her, which you shouldn't

mrshibbins · 13/10/2009 09:50

skihorse - the point is - there was NO WILL and there are very CLEAR laws of intestacy in these matters. It's not a moot point.

MorrisZapp - when i met my mum's 'stepmum' a couple of years ago she was very overweight, sweating and with an acknowledged heart condition. My mum is very robust indeed, fit, healthy and often is mistaken for 20 years younger. So I am assuming that IF this is taken any further, it has to be how.

Morloth - until he had a total mental breakdown (very shortly after his second marriage), he spent every Sunday with Mum. They would go on long nature rambles together through Epping Forest and he taught her all he knew as a naturalist, a passion which she has to this day. She treasures the time she had with him and missed him terribly ... that doesn't sound to me like a man who didn't love his little girl ....

I'm going on a long nature walk myself now, to think all this through.

OP posts:
Jux · 13/10/2009 09:55

I would be immensely grateful that someone had been looking after my alcoholic senile relative, and that would be worth it's weight in gold.

Imagine your mum, poor, kids, no help. Imagine her father appearing in her life with his alcoholism and senility requiring huge amounts of her time and attention. If she'd found it hard to cope with just you lot, think how hard she'd have found it to cope with your gf around as well.

I'm not saying she wouldn't have done it, and probably she'd have done it gladly, but she didn't have to because someone else did. That someone else deserves recognition for that at least.

GhostlyWhiteSeahorses · 13/10/2009 09:56

Agree with everyone who has said that you should speak to your mum before taking things any further. Just posted because I thought it was a bit harsh to see the OP painted as as a money grabber, when I didn't think that was her true motivation.

Morloth · 13/10/2009 09:57

He still left her though and lets assume the widow is a nasty person, she is going to tell your Mum that your Grandfather wanted nothing to do with her.

If your Mum is capable of backpacking in Europe then she is capable of chasing this herself and it seems unlikely to me that an intelligent robust woman hasn't considered doing so and then dismissed it as not worth it.

Let it go, for your Mum's sake.

skihorse · 13/10/2009 09:59

Oh noes, your step-grandmother is a tubby sweatster?

It really doesn't matter who the money was left to - it's none of your business. Your robust, healthy mother could've tracked him down years ago if she'd wanted to.

LittleWhiteWolf · 13/10/2009 10:04

Not read the replies,sorry, but if your grandfather and his widow were married which it sounds like they were, then everything would pass to her on his death as she was his spouse. But I think you are right in thinking that your mum is entitled to the estate after the widows death. I would speak to a solicitor regarding this; in fact speak to several, most offer a one hour free consultation thingy so get as many POVs as possible.

diddl · 13/10/2009 10:07

But there may not have been a wrong done to you mother.

And if there is, isn´t it up to her to put it "right"?

Perhaps she wants to leave everything in the past.

madamearcati · 13/10/2009 10:12

I thought if husband and wife jointly own the house it automatically becomes hers if he dies.
I really think you ought to speak to your mother about it before you go any further

mrshibbins · 13/10/2009 10:15

theyoungvisiter - I want to get facts right so that she can make an informed decision without getting her hopes up if there IS NO REAL CASE - how does that make me an the arbiter? What would be the point of asking her and involving her and then letting her down?

My mum might be on the face of it physically robust and self-sufficient - she has survived some pretty awful things. But emotionally she is a very complex woman who has been badly hurt, and needs a LOT of coddling and protecting which I want to give to her. I love her dearly.

skihorse - she LOVED her father so much and would have given anything for him to get in touch with her again It was up to him to get in touch. She didn't seek him out so not to risk any further hurt and rejection. Can't you understand that? She would have LOVED to have seen him again even one more time, even if he was ill.

Also skihorse, MorrisZapp asked me WHY I thought that my grandmother's widow might die before my mum and I answered truthfully: she is overweight with a heart condition. Her sweating was a sign of her poor health. Why the sarcasm? This isn't what MN is for.

I've already done most of the investigations and my mum has all the info I could get about what happened to her Dad and why he abandoned her. She was very grateful for it. If it had been awful I wouldn't have told her. But after much thought, I did. And It laid a LOT of ghosts to rest for her and she has been happier since. Nothing patronising here. Just love and help between daughter and mother.

OP posts:
AngryFromManchester · 13/10/2009 10:21

I am a bit concerned about this. What is the legal standing on a situation like this? can you expand on it Seabright?

My partner has never seen his first child (long and boring and something he is not proud of) but was married, then divorced to the childs mother. Does that mean his eldest child has a claim on our 'estate' (laughable) even though she only shares his bloodline? We have been married for well over a decade and our house was bought JOINTLY by both of us...

and before anyone shouts at me, I am not bitter or anything I want to know the legal standing and he has always paid generous maintenance (not that it makes hios lack of contact any better/easier)

AitchTwoToTangOh · 13/10/2009 10:22

what wrong is it that you are seeking to right, exactly?

that your grandpa left your mum, ignored your grandma's attempts at contact, that he married a child, basically, and then had a mental breakdown, drank too much and went senile?

isn't it possible that he's the shit here? why put an old woman with no kids to back her up through this? even if she did have the gall to withhold her number and meet you outside tie rack? (was it lavenderr who worked there, btw?)

Morloth · 13/10/2009 10:23

Yes AngryFromManchester I think your DH's first child does indeed have a claim on his estate.

pleasechange · 13/10/2009 10:27

angryfrommanchester - if your house is jointly owned, then if you DH dies before you, the property would automatically be yours and would not form part of his estate anyway. Has he made a will?

AngryFromManchester · 13/10/2009 10:30

No, he hasn't wrote a will. I am really shocked about this tbh I just assumed I would inherit it anyway. Obviously we will ahve to discuss what he wants anyway but I just don't want to be left dealing with it, incase anything does ever happen

pleasechange · 13/10/2009 10:31

angry - he needs to make a will otherwise could be complicated if she is a dependent child