to investigate whether my grandfather's widow has diddled my mum out of her inheritance?

[mrshibbins]

background:

My mother is an only child. Her parents were divorced acrimoniously when she was a small child and she did not see her father again after the age of 12 because he ceased all contact when he remarried - to a girl only 4 years older than herself. This has always been a source of much self-doubt and unhappiness for her.

He had no further children. He died in 1977 and left a widow and a property.

I only found out all this because about 5 years ago I conducted a search at the Family Record Office. I found out from the death certificate that he had a widow, and from the electoral register that she still lived at the same address. I wrote to his widow, explaining who I was, and asking to meet her to talk because I really wanted to find out what had happened to my grandfather so that I could put my mother's mind at rest in some way.

I heard nothing for nearly 3 months, then she telephoned me (but withheld the number). We arranged to meet in town (she would not let me go to her home) outside Tie Rack at Liverpool St Station and from there we went to a pub and had lunch. She was very defensive throughout the meeting. She told me that when they met he was a very successful electrical engineer and doing very well for himself financially. After marrying she moved into his house - still occupied by her.

They had no children together and she had no children of her own. He subsequently a complete mental breakdown from which he never fully recovered and that he died relatively young in his early sixties.

I asked her why she had made no attempt to contact my mother when he died and she became even more defensive and said she did not understand why my mother would want to know. I made several attempts to contact her since this time, but she never replied to any of my letters or cards.

Then my OH recently suggested that the woman never contacted my mother when her father died because no will had been made and that my mother would have had some legacy coming to her. And thought that this is why she refuses to be in contact with us.

So, I started investigating and sure enough, no will was ever lodged with the Probate Office. I have contacted a solicitor and he has said that my mother would in this case should have inherited 50% of the property (on the death of his widow) and that the next step is to make enquiries with the land registry to see who the flat was registered to at the time of my grandfather's death.

I have no desire whatsoever to turf the woman out of her home, or to say to her 'what you did was wrong' because she must have been in a state. BUT eventually, when SHE dies, I want to make sure that my grandfather's property and remaining possessions should pass to my mother, and not to anyone else.

Am I doing the right thing in pursuing this?

How long was it between the mental breakdown and his death?

I wonder if there is anything left to inherit. If he died in 1977, she may have exhausted all available funds, and taken equity out of the house to survive. If she married him so young, it is unlikely she had a profession to return to as a means of earning money.

Did he pay alimony or child support?

Don't understand how he was not traceable if he lived in a property he had owned before his re-marriage. Presumably it was the house he owned/occupied before severing contact with your Mum (his daughter)?

Maybe she did tell them (executors) but no effort was made to trace your mother as she wouldn't inherit anything.

I don't get this his house thing. Surely if they were married half the house was already hers and so only half the then value would have made up his estate.

The youngvisitor- I was being very basic but I have to admit I was making the assumption that it wasn't some mansion but rather a house that half the value of would definitely have fallen under the amount in those days

Apparently legally you may be well out of time to change things now - after 12 years is considered a long time to dispute an inheritance of land for example - however stronlgy you feel, rightly or wrongly. You should be able to track either probate or letters of administration via the Probate Calendar for the relevant year as a startong point but there is every possiblity that he died leaving his widow very little if he was an alcoholic though. I really doubt you dm will want to go through a protracted and complex, and potentially painful, legal claim at her time of life. A better bet might be to appeal to his widow's conscience, but again , it is not really up to you to decide.

I think there is an assumption you're a moneygrabber MrsH, I just get that feeling.

Him saying that he did not 'see why my mother would be interested' could be interpreted in lost sof ways. Sounds like a man who could be ashamed of his past actions?

AAnd I can well understand why his widow wwould hold her number and not give it you - sshe doesn't know you.

IIt does come across as though you are iintereseted in this for yourself. Sorry if tthat's wrong but that is teh way it's ccoming across

Just came back to this - mrshibbins, I had no idea from your OP that you were doing this without your mother's knowledge/consent - is that really correct?

If so I think it's utterly and totally wrong and YABcompletelyU.

This is your MOTHER'S entitlement, not yours. If she wants to pursue it, or wants you to pursue it on her behalf, than absolutely, of course she must do so. But you could be stirring up a hornets nest of resentment and pain for her.

She is 71, not 91. Unless she has senile dementia then you are being utterly unreasonable and high handed in taking this important decision away from her.

My advice would be to leave well alone. I think that your motives are questionable and I'm not sure that any amount of money in the world is worth causing distress and aggravation to 2 women who sound like they've been through a lot of c* in their lives already.

There's a lot of unknown information and assumptions in this story.

One thing that is known is that you feel very aggrieved on behalf of your mother. You love her and you want to do what you think is the right thing by her.

But...

Maybe the other woman was told by your grandfather that your Mum didn't want to have anything to do with him (and being 16 years old, believed him).

Maybe she's quite a simple soul who doesn't know about estate law and it would never have occurred to her to make contact with your Mum, even to let her know about his death.

Maybe your Mum is still repressing a lot of feelings about the whole episode and wouldn't want any of that stirred up even by making the moves that you are right now.

OBviously you have only the best intentions and the best interests of your Mum but you must talk to her about this befoe you do anything else.

And, finally, don't post in AIBU if you don't want people to disagree with you.

I've seen grief in my family chasing inheritence and it is not worth it. It causes so much upset. When you start to talk to people so many have a tale of upset about these things. Stop stirring it up and leave well alone.

Also, there may be things that have happened that you and your mother (being only 12 when she was estranged) have not been party to. Maybe the father thought he wasn't really the father, maybe your grandmother told him to get lost when he got his 16 year old wife and told your mum a different story? Maybe your mum's stepmother will say that he never loved his daughter and didn't care about her. By dragging this all up you are risking exposing your mother to a lot of hurt.

squeaver, if i just wanted my achy breaky heart soothed, I wouldn't have posted on here now would I? Did I give that impression? I posted because I'm UNSURE of whether I'm doing the right thing or not. Isn't that what this forum is for? I'm a bit appalled by the hostility here tbh. My mum never deserved to be treated like that and it's haunted her all her life. I wanted to make sure there was some kind of restitution. She thinks he didn't CARE about her. When in reality he was a mentally ill man, who died years before his time. Mum was never given the OPTION by his widow to say whether she was interested or not, whether she cared or not. It was not his widow's place to just assume. There was no will - that has been confirmed. His widow would have to have signed papers to the effect that there were NO DESCENDANTS and no claim in order for the property to be transferred. But AS I HAVE MADE CLEAR if my mum has no wish to pursue, then it will not be pursued.

If I were in your position I would be fascinated to know what went on.

The key to this is getting a better relationship going - or any relationship at all - with the widow. Forget about the money - it's not important. If you can get her to talk, you'll maybe be able to help your mother lay things to rest.

(Though on the face of it, it sounds like he might just not have cared. )

Could it be that there was a will but the estate was so small at that time that it did not come under probate? (House prices have risen out of all proportion since 1977).

But you are talking as if it's a simple choice between pursuing the money and leaving well alone.

Your mother might have other wishes - to speak to her stepmother, to get a token from her father's estate, to find out more about his side of the story. By making contact with the widow, involving solicitors and investigating all this without her consent you may have already burnt those bridges.

What if, by the time you do consult your mother, the widow has been scared off by your approaches and prefers to talk only through solicitors? You might have already destroyed any chance for a meaningful rapprochement, which might be far more important than the money for your mother.

I honestly don't understand why you are not involving your mother in this decision. You have said she is "naive" and "not savvy". Does that mean you get to trample over her opinions rough-shod and stir up her past without her consent?

I really dont think that this man didn't make a will so that he cut his dd out completly - I think about 60% of the population of this country don't bother to make a will as it is a hassle/dont want to face they will die - so really dont read anything into the not making a will as a cut of.

It really doesn't matter what your motives are, you would eventually tell your mum and eventually if fruitful you may well come into a portion of this - it could be though that any money that was possible obtianed would be spent or spent on your mothers car in old age.

What I would be really niggly about is if this widow died interstate and the money was divided by her long lost relatives that had never seen her in 50 years - when actually that money could have brought my mother soem comfort in her old age from her father who she missed out on in early years.

When my grandfather died 15 years ago everything went to my grandmother as house not worth much in those days. When my grandmother died everything got split between her descendants.
Agree it's unfortunate from your grandfathers side of the family that your stepgrandmother out lived your grandfather so nothing will come to your mum but that is just how it is with normal sized stepfamilies, particularly when house prices weren't worth much. If your grandfather was bothered about your mum he should have made a will.
I'm not a big fan of inheritences and would be happy for my dad to spend his on holidays if he wants. If he wants to remarry and leave it all to his new wife that's his choice too.
I think you're poking your nose in and should have got your mum's permission to do this.
I'm dreading getting old. Younger female relatives are terrible at treating their older relatives as though their opinions don't matter.

She has looked through the probate registers though and not found a will - didn't she?

I started investigating and sure enough, no will was ever lodged with the Probate Office

You need probate after someone dies, you either have a will or it goes to admo - there are registers of these two in larger libraries or at old holborn so you can search to see whether it was a will or admonds. Even if you are a wife you will need to do this if property or a certain amount of money if involved (the goverment want there tax so the amount is quite low)

So there was no will and the op is going to apply for a full copy of the admons.

This is how I have understood it from the early posts

The assumption that the mother is somehow morally entitled to a share is kind of icky. The fact is: he left, had no contact, whatever his reasons, honest or not, and nothing about that makes her morally his rightful heir.

Just because there is no will registered with probate doesnt mean there wasn't one. Maybe he just left everything to his new wife and it was dealt with without going to probate. I doubt someone who had basically abandoned his only daughter would of made provision in his will

Also, what if there is some awful secret being covered up here that your mother doesn't want revealing? Or might not know about herself but would be further hurt by?

Families split and fall out of touch for a reason usually, even errant fathers. Perhaps your mother prefers it this way and in fact you might cause more hurt by raking this up.

Or maybe your mother has considered all of this already and decided it is not important to her: she may surprise you.

I think most people on AIBU think YABU. Or at least, that you haven't sufficiently considered the consequences of your actions.

Copy and pasted from the Governments site

When a grant may not be needed
A grant of representation may not be needed where:
the person who died left less than £5,000

they owned everything jointly with someone else and everything passes automatically to the surviving joint owner

I never used probate, all companies concerned just took will as proof and dealt accordingly

"His widow would have to have signed papers to the effect that there were NO DESCENDANTS and no claim in order for the property to be transferred."

Sorry, but that's not true. I'm a property lawyer and have also done Probate work in the past.

If the house was held be him and his wife as Joint Tenants (and its very likely it was) then it wouls have automatically passed to her WITHOUT FORMING PART OF HIS ESTATE, therefore without any possibility any part of it going to your mother. If his other assets where very small (I think the current limit is £5k - don't know what ot was then) then you don't need to prove the will, even if a will was made, it can all be dealt with under the Small Estates Regulations.

So, I'm afraid that the most likely situation is the one I've outlined above - she legitamatly inherited the property and a very small amount of cash/assets. She wouldn't have lied to anyone about other relatives, because the fact of their existance or otherwise just wouldn't be relevant.