In thinking that the benefit system encourages lone parenthood?

[retiredgoth2]

And no.

I am not starting a fight for its own sake, even though I am aware that one may ensue.

I am a lone parent (of four. Two with SEN)

So is my Special Friend ('SF') She has two children, one with a disability.

We are going to move in together. Neither of our earning capacities will increase. We are both already working as much as is possible. In SF's case, perhaps more than is advisable...

We have done the sums.

Between us we will be (wait for it) 20 k a year worse off.

Yes. I said Twenty Thousand Pounds.

And this does not include the housing benefit SF currently receives.

I will lose all of my widowed parents allowance, and the late Mrs Goth's NHS pension, about 8k. The balance is tax credits, which will reduce to almost zilch.

The only net gain is council tax. Whilst we both lose the 25% reduction, we will only have to pay on one property. This is a gain of about £500.

Now. I don't think I am owed a living. But these sums nearly put us off. There are many others who would be deterred.

I do not know an answer, but feel that this is a flaw in the benefits system, discouraging people from either (a) being honest or (b) living stable lives...

What could be done?

HB+CTC+CTaxB+CB = £1300 pcm around here for a single parent with one child.

sory but unless you live in a very expensive area of the country it will equate to no where near the equivalent of £26 for a single parent with one child. especially not a teenager its work out at about £100 a week "in hand" - they'll get housing benefits for a 2 bedroom house, and council tax benefit. It's about £114 a week for older single mothers.

lou - you must live somewhere a lot more expensive that I do then - as when I was a single parent with 3 children it worked at around £1500pcm. With housing benefit and CTB included

Its the value of the rent plus council tax that causes the implied value of the benefits to go up a lot not just he cash in hand. Especially in the South East where rents are very high. Add on top of that the cost of actually going out to work such as travel, clothes, food out, etc. The full 'cost of working' as compared to being on benefits easily mounts up to £400/week or £20k per annum.

Gross that up with tax that is not paid on the benfits but would have to be paid if it were earned and it is very easy to get to £26k.

lol Abeta - £400 a week for "work" expenses - omg we'd have been bankrupt in months if DH had spent that month a week on work related expenses before he lost his job!

And certainly while he's looking for work now we're factoring no where near that amount for travel etc - otherwise he wouldn't be able to afford to work.

perhaps in the very expensive parts of the country it might be easy to get to £26k for a single parent with one children - but in the majority of the country - no way. And I guess in those extremely high areas of the country then those on lower wages would be getting help with their rent anyhow -

My sister who lives in a 2-bed HA house with two children gets £14,000 p.a including CTB, HB and Child Benefit which isn't means-tested.

But you explain the situation very well, ABD.

Could add in free prescriptions and school-meals too, and here in the S.E a privately-rented house could easily inflate that figure.

I'm also shocked about the pension, I had no idea!

Anyway, congratulations, RG

(not particularly entering the debate - but just a point of information) alwayslooking £1500 pcm is very close to a gross salary of £24k. if you factored in that someone earning is going to be travelling to work the earning person could well end up with less than £1500 pcm.

abetadad just said pretty much the same thing...

and sorry - I meant £26k (not £24)

I have to say that when I split from abusive ex P I was suprised that my tax credits went up so much (I work p/t), it meant I could just about survive without him. Mind you now I'm back at work after maternity leave my family have to help with nursery fee's as they have gone through the roof, 2 dc's x 3 days a week = approx £900 a month. If I didn't have such a small mortgage we'd be screwed.

If the benefits were so low that lone parents couldn't survive then some would feel they had to get into another relationship just to pay the bills or living in poverty. I have no intention of having another partner for years as my dc's are so young and I want home life to be stable for them.

"it meant I could just about survive without him" which is the very point! no-one should have to stay in an abusive relationship because benefits would be lower than "just about surviving".

also megret makes another point - cost of childcare. someone earning £26k and paying for childcare would definitely have less than £1500 pcm.

yes but £1500pcm is for 3 children - someone claimed that a single parent with 1 child would get not much less than that.

round it up to £6000 (lets be generous - it's not actually that much if you've only got one child) for Income support, Child Tax Credit and Child Benefit.

If we work on the basis that it's the net of the £26k a year - we're looking at just under £20k, call it £19,500 to be fair after tax.

That means that £13,500 of the single parent on benefits "income" is the housing benefit and council tax.

Don't have a clue how much coucil tax is in the most expensive parts of the country - but I'll hazard a guess and double what I getting last year - so we'll call it £1500 a year (including the single person discount that anyone gets).

£1000 a month "left" for the housing benefit for a 2 bedroom house/flat. You can rent a "non flashy" 2 bedroom flat in Kensington and Chelsea for that amount.

£26k a year is £1,645.63 pcm by the way.

btw I'm not disputing that those on benefits could get as much as someone earning £26k a year - I'm disputing the fact that a single parent with one child would get anything close to that.

The benefits system is but one part of life; and life IMO doesn't encourage single parenthood. We'reon alow income,but i'd rather that than have to deal with our challenging lot in life (4 sons, 2 with sn, 1 with SEN) alone, or sit in the house all nights lonely. Why on earth anyone would want that I will never understand, unless their realtionship is on its uppers anyway.

Tax credit5s feed us; I am a carer soreceive a princely £53 pw. DH lost his job and receives TC's as he works 16 hours PW alongside studying full time. Ilov tc's, they are what is saving us from homelessness and all that goes with it.

Peachy - tell me about it with the TC's - they're keeping us afloat at the moment too (and will continue to do so once DH finds work)

alwayslooking - I expressed myself badly.

By 'cost of working' I meant what a person would lose in benefits by going out to work plus their extra cash costs.

In other words, a working person loses direct cash benefits, housing benefit, council tax benefit, but incurrs direct costs of going to work such as travel, clothes, eating outside home. If extra childcare costs are added on top the 'cost of going out to work' would be even higher. Hence many single parents just cannot afford to go ot to work unless they earn above average wages.

My sister lived on benefits in this way, got allocated a council flat in London, then got right to buy after a number of years and sold it at a huge profit. Now she works and lives in private rented and did not choose to be living on benefits but she confirmed that is how the economics are.

Just to say, I do not think living on benefits is a cushy life at all. I just think, there is an incentive to do so for some people and an even bigger disincentive to getting off them even for those who really want to - as RetiredGoth2 has identified. I know Ian Duncan Smith has been looking at ways of reforming the situation once the Tories get into power. I hope they do it by increasing incentives and reducing disincentives rather than punishing people on benefits.

HB doesn't work like that

each area sets a maximum- here that is £200 pcm under the rental cost of houses where we are. Apaprently if you find something under the copst you can keepa small difference ATM but they are closing that loophole.

And that is when you find a house that takes HB; many, like us, are in a house which doesn't allow claims, not an issue when DH ahd a decent job, but hard now.

plus they've dropped the disability criteria for extra rooms, so whilst both ds1 and ds3 badly need their own rooms for sn related reasons, what happens is that ds1 gets his, as he would ahrm the toehrs, but ds3 has to bunk in with ds2 whilst the toddler is with us.

We ahd planned to move this year to a 4 bed but then life shat on us.

Nothing we can do, but there is this isdea that if you qualify for HB or benefits its all laid out for you- not so. Even school dinners are not free as if you get 1p in WTC they stop your claim,DH's wonderful £50 pwself employed income prevents us getting them.

like abetadad, by suggesting that for some people benefits might be equivalent to something in the region of a salary of £26k I too am not for a second suggesting that benefits might be too high or a cushty option. no way.

well yes if the benefit claimant is lucky enough to be living in council accommodation and gets the right to buy......but many are in private rented (and even owner occupied which they're stuck with as they can't sell them)

Fact is we would be better of separated, whether that's with DH working or him on benefits and no money might not be the be all and end all - but when you move in with someone and your combined "income" drops to an amount that has no manoeuvring space at all it's a huge disincentive to move in with someone/declare that you have a DP.

I had many many sleepless nights before I moved back in with DH worring myself sick about how we would pay all the bills.

When I did the sums I discovered that I would have more than double the disposable income that we currently have if we split up.

I know of a few single mums who have partners and are unable to move in with them because they wouldn't be able to afford the drop in income. Its not right.

RG - are all the kids school age? Have you calculated what household income would be if either/both of you decided to reduce hours? I realise it makes your point even more clear, but by working less hours, you may have more income.

looks this is the post I am arguing against

"so in our family we do feel a bit bitter when people like her claim, anyway we worked out her lone parnet benefit and what she gets is equivelent of somoen else earning £26k a year"

That poster said the person in question has ONE child.

And I'm still slightly bemused by this £400 a week cost of working. That's us screwed then - as once DH is back in work, we'll be getting just under £400 a month (salary, CB, WTC and the money I get from church for playing) - and that has to cover everything from mortgage to clothes.

And no we wouldn't be better off with him staying at home on benefits - we'll actually get a little bit more each month than we currently do.

alwayslooking - are you in London / South East?

If you leave in an area with low rents then what you say is probably true but not in an area with higher housig costs. I see the economics of this when I look at the budgets of single mums who come to get loans from the charity I work for. They do not pay rent or council tax and I know what rents and council tax are in our area.

They cannot afford to go out to work it is as simple as that.