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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

in thinking that refusal of a Special School place for your SEN child is totally mystifying?

137 replies

notanumber · 04/10/2009 00:07

I read this article about the growing numbers of children exluded from primary school in The Telegraph today.

It is absolutely beyond me why some parents are so hellbent on keeping their child in mainstream education when alternative provison would clearly be so much better for all involved.

"Then the head teacher called to say that she had found a place for George at a most excellent school ? a special school for children with moderate to severe learning difficulties. David was 'appalled'. Not only had the school negotiated a place without consulting them, but also 'it showed a complete misunderstanding of George,' David says. George, he stresses, 'is a mainstream child."

How is a child who bites and scratches, lashes out when asked to hold a pencil and bolts from the classroom "a mainstream child"?

I'm not saying that they are wrong to question and be critical of the way the school handled their son. Mainstream education is, I think, often woefully inadequate for (some) children with SEN.

But if they are so disgusted at how mainstream school is handling their child's needs, why the blazes are they doggedly keeping him there and not jumping at the chance for him to go to a special school?

I'm a teacher and if my child had SEN that were causing him the horrible difficulties that the family in the article describe and he was then offered the chance of a specialist tailored education in a Special School I wouldn't think twice.

This is not an attack on all parents who have children with SEN. I know there will be lots of posters who are desperate for their child to be offered a Special School place but have to work with the mainstream system as best they can.

I also know that inclusion has worked really well for many children. Please don't think that I am airily saying that if your SEN child is in mainstream education this is automatically the wrong place for them, or that you don't care about their wellbeing.

I am just genuinely bemused by this couples' attitude. Do they really think that they are acting in their child's best interests by refusing the Special School place he was offered?

OP posts:
moondog · 04/10/2009 21:13

Behavior Analysis is the scientific study of behavior. Applied Behavior Analysis (ABA) is the application of the principles of learning and motivation from Behavior Analysis, and the procedures and technology derived from those principles, to the solution of problems of social significance. Many decades of research have validated treatments based on ABA.

Over the past 30 years, several thousand published research studies have documented the effectiveness of ABA across a wide ransge of:

?populations (children and adults with mental illness, developmental disabilities and learning disorders)
?interventionists (parents, teachers and staff)
?settings (schools, homes, institutions, group homes, hospitals and business offices), and
?behaviors (language; social, academic, leisure and functional life skills; aggression, selfinjury, oppositional and stereotyped behaviors)
Applied behavior analysis is the process of systematically applying interventions based upon the principles of learning theory to improve socially significant behaviors to a meaningful degree, and to demonstrate that the interventions employed are responsible for the improvement in behavior (Baer, Wolf & Risley, 1968; Sulzer-Azaroff & Mayer, 1991).

?Socially significant behaviors? include reading, academics, social skills, communication, and adaptive living skills. Adaptive living skills include gross and fine motor skills, eating and food preparation, toileting, dressing, personal self-care, domestic skills, time and punctuality, money and value, home and community orientation, and work skills.

ABA methods are used to support persons with autism in at least six ways:

?to increase behaviors (eg reinforcement procedures increase on-task behavior, or social interactions);
?to teach new skills (eg, systematic instruction and reinforcement procedures teach functional life skills, communication skills, or social skills);
?to maintain behaviors (eg, teaching self control and self-monitoring procedures to maintain and generalize job-related social skills);
?to generalize or to transfer behavior from one situation or response to another (eg, from completing assignments in the resource room to performing as well in the mainstream classroom);
?to restrict or narrow conditions under which interfering behaviors occur (eg, modifying the learning environment); and
?to reduce interfering behaviors (eg, self injury or stereotypy).
ABA is an objective discipline. ABA focuses on the reliable measurement and objective
evaluation of observable behavior.

Reliable measurement requires that behaviors are defined objectively. Vague terms such as anger, depression, aggression or tantrums are redefined in observable and quantifiable terms, so their frequency, duration or other measurable properties can be directly recorded (Sulzer-Azaroff & Mayer, 1991). For example, a goal to reduce a child?s aggressive behavior might define ?aggression? as: ?attempts, episodes or occurrences (each separated by 10 seconds) of biting, scratching, pinching or pulling hair.? ?Initiating social interaction with peers? might be defined as: ?looking at classmate and verbalizing an appropriate greeting.?
ABA interventions require a demonstration of the events that are responsible for the occurrence, or non-occurrence, of behavior. ABA uses methods of analysis that yield convincing, reproducible, and conceptually sensible demonstrations of how to accomplish specific behavior changes (Baer & Risley, 1987). Moreover, these behaviors are evaluated within relevant settings such as schools, homes and the community. The use of single case experimental design to evaluate the effectiveness of individualized interventions is an essential component of programs based upon ABA methodologies. This is a process that includes the following components:

?selection of interfering behavior or behavioral skill deficit
?identification of goals and objectives
?establishment of a method of measuring target behaviors
?evaluation of the current levels of performance (baseline)
?design and implementation of the interventions that teach new skills and/or reduce interfering behaviors
?continuous measurement of target behaviors to determine the effectiveness of the intervention, and
?ongoing evaluation of the effectiveness of the intervention, with modifications made as necessary to maintain and/or increase both the effectiveness and the efficiency of the intervention. (MADSEC, 2000, p. 21-23)
As the MADSEC Report describes above, treatment approaches grounded in ABA are now considered to be at the forefront of therapeutic and educational interventions for children with autism. The large amount of scientific evidence supporting ABA treatments for children with autism have led a number of other independent bodies to endorse the effectiveness of ABA, including the U.S. Surgeon General, the New York State Department of Health, the National Academy of Sciences, and the American Academy of Pediatrics (see reference list below for sources).

Discrete Trial Training
Discrete trial training (DTT) is a particular ABA teaching strategy which enables the learner to acquire complex skills and behaviors by first mastering the subcomponents of the targeted skill. For example, if one wishes to teach a child to request a a desired interaction, as in "I want to play," one might first teach subcomponents of this skill, such as the individual sounds comprising each word of the request, or labeling enjoyable leisure activities as "play." By utilizing teaching techniques based on the principles of behavior analysis, the learner is gradually able to complete all subcomponent skills independently. Once the individual components are acquired, they are linked together to enable mastery of the targeted complex and functional skill. This methodology is highly effective in teaching basic communication, play, motor, and daily living skills.

Initially, ABA programs for children with Autism utilized only (DTT), and the curriculum focused on teaching basic skills as noted above. However, ABA programs, such as the program implemented at CARD, continue to evolve, placing greater emphasis on the generalization and spontaneity of skills learned. As patients progress and develop more complex social skills, the strict DTT approach gives way to treatments including other components.

Specifically, there are a number of weaknesses with DTT including the fact the DTT is primarily teacher initiated, that typically the reinforcers used to increase appropriate behavior are unrelated to the target response, and that rote responding can often occur. Moreover, deficits in areas such ?emotional understanding,? ?perspective taking? and other Executive Functions such as problem solving skills must also be addressed and the DTT approach is not the most efficient means to do so.

Although the DTT methodology is an integral part of ABA-based programs, other teaching strategies based on the principles of behavior analysis such as Natural Environment Training (NET) may be used to address these more complex skills. NET specifically addresses the above mentioned weaknesses of DTT in that all skills are taught in a more natural environment in a more ?playful manner.? Moreover, the reinforcers used to increase appropriate responding are always directly related to the task (e.g., a child is taught to say the word for a preferred item such as a ?car? and as a reinforcer is given access to the car contingent on making the correct response). NET is just one example of the different teaching strategies used in a comprehensive ABA-based program. Other approaches that are not typically included in strict DTT include errorless teaching procedures and Fluency-Based Instruction.

donkeyderby · 04/10/2009 21:14

George is now at another mainstream school where he is doing much better. So why did he need to go to an SN school? Obviously, something in the philosophy and organisation, maybe the peer group, of his new school is working and something about the old school was not working for him.

I have only anecdotal evidence from many parents with SN kids, (DS is at an SN school) but it seems obvious that some schools really don't want to have SN kids in them - that includes the teachers - and therefore do not adequately and creatively cater for them. Thinking it is ok to arrange a place for an intelligent child in an MLD school without asking the parents, smacks of a very bad attitude towards SN. Good for those parents for having the balls to stand up to the system.

moondog · 04/10/2009 21:17

The truly terrifying thing about ABA is realising how utterly logical the whole thing is and then realizing the horrible truth, being that this hasn't been used all along.

I've heard so many people who know nothing of 'special education' (bitter laugh) who say 'But isn't this used anyway?'

No, because generally people are too busy engaged in activities that look loook lovely but provide a convenient smokescreen with regards to the fact that no teaching is going on.

notanumber · 04/10/2009 21:18

claw I'm so sorry for your son and for you. What an awful situation.

I hope that I have always stressed on this thread that I am sympathetic to the huge strains that attaining the educational needs of a child with SEN can have on a family.

However, I do think that in some situations, this can (understandly) lead to an "us and them" mentality, where any opinions from "professionals" are automatically dismissed. I think that this does not help matters but only exacerbates them.

You say "it's not always black and white", but this cuts both ways. Schools aren't always working against you and your child.

OP posts:
notanumber · 04/10/2009 21:19

moondog - that is facinating. Thank you for drawing my attention to it. I shall definitely be researching this more.

OP posts:
silverfrog · 04/10/2009 21:24

I can only give my opinion, as I see it form how we ahev been affected, notanumber.

dd1 is a funny mix of medium-functioning ASD and severe ASD. she has flummoxed many a professional who has come across her, and not just ones who don't know what they are talking about!

dd1 was recommneded for the wrong school for a number of reasons:

our then-LEA had no siutable provsion for her, and it is cheaper for them to send ehr to their unsuitable placement than it is to fund her at an out-of-county suitable school.

it is also cheaper if she attends an unsuitbale state-run SN school, rather than fund her ABA programme.

if she goes to the school, the LEA does not have to admit their methods are hopeless - it is more that dd1 is unable to learn, iyswim? when we (hopefully) win our tribunal, it will be another crack in the dam that is holding back a tidal wave of unsuitable placements. one day that dam will fail.

dd1 is currently at a private ASD school. it is fantastic, I am sure, fo teh pupils it suits. it does not suit dd1. the school agree with us on this, but only in private. they will not state outright that iti s unsuitable for dd1, as, in the head's words, she has to "protect her school" - if she admits it si doign no good for dd1, then why should the LEA fund other children there, either? she is in a tricky position, but tbh, I'm not sure I care that much. I am not saying the school is useless - they do a lot of very good things, but sadly dd1 has not progressed at all since being there. I wish she could stay there, and I wish she could go to our local ASD school (also very good - we looked around, and the facilities are great. the staff ratios are high. the children seem happy. but why, when their intake is of medium-high functioning ASD children, can they not get a single pass at GCSE? (that is, one pass in ANY subject, not one pass per child or anything. dh and I observed a lesson of 8ish year olds - numeracy. the children sat well, atttended, knew their stuff and answered questions in turn on some simpkle mental arithmetic. how can this not translate up the school? answer: becasue the children are not expected to achieve. some of them will transfer out, but not all will be able to, or even want to. they are certainly not left with unteachable children further up the school, but the children do not achieve a single qualification between them)

I know academic qualifications are not the be all and end all in life, but no-one says that about most NT children, do they?

I sat in a review meeting about dd1 last week, and was asked ot state what my learning objectives were for dd1.

she is 5 years old, and should be in Yr1. Funnily enough, my learning objectives for her are in line with other 5 year olds - differentiated, sure because she has a langugae delay. But there is no reason why she should not learn to read and write. Except she is ASD, and so apparently I should be embracing the whole learning package and rejoicing that dd1 sits quietly at school and walks nicely on her community outings.

ffs.

she has been sitting nicely and attending to things at home for over 3 years now, and has been walking nicely (ie holding hands and maintaining a decent pace/not lying in the road) for a similar lenght of time.

apaarently I should be happy with her progress, and the fact that i am not is unrealistic.

When dh & I mentioned we were concerned she had not learnt anything, we were told "that dpends on what you mean by learning" (our simple answer of "knowing something which she did not know previously" was ignored)

donkeyderby · 04/10/2009 21:26

By the way, I'm not very happy about the general message from some on here that SLD schools are 'bad' and the children in them are somehow incapable of learning. DS's SLD school has a lovely library, some children can read and write and do maths, and the national curriculum is adapted and taught to all the children. SN school does not equal no education or they would not be called schools, they would be called day centres, (most people don't even seem to realise SLD kids go to school anyway, they seem to think they sit drooling in a portakabin attached to a children's hospital all day).

borderslass · 04/10/2009 21:29

moondog thank you some of that we have done with my son his social skills are still very poor but he is getting there he is very introvert though but we have managed to give him coping strategies for his anger he now goes and sits on the back stairs no matter what time it is rather than hit or punch me.he even learned to read this year which did his confidence no end of good.

claw3 · 04/10/2009 21:33

Notanumber - In the 4 years my ds has been being assessed, he has never seen the same 'professional' more than once. He has seen endless 'specialists', who just dont 'get it, especially if the problems spill over into more than one area which they dont 'specialise' in.

Although i am sure this is not always the case, 'professionals' can base their reports/opinions on seeing a child sometimes, for as little as an hour.

Im sure lots of schools have the child's best interest at heart, but in many cases i suspect, like so many 'experts' they just 'dont get it'.

It would be impossible for teachers to be able to truly understand every special need there is, which is why many parents have to become 'experts'.

claw3 · 04/10/2009 21:46

Moondog - Sorry total hijack of thread, glad to catch you here, ive seen you on the SN section.

My ds has been given cards to help him communicate by the school, is there a formal name for these?

2shoes · 04/10/2009 22:09

donkeyderby well said.

saintlydamemrsturnip · 04/10/2009 22:15

Agree with donkey. My non-verbal 10 year old son who is at an SLD school remember places he went to and routes he took when he was 2 years old. He may have SLD's but he can do things I cannot. You try learning without language- it's not easy.

He was in a mainstream school initially because we were not allowed to check out the local special schools. We were told he 'had' to go to mainstream school. Of course I now know that is rubbish and we got him out after 4 terms (which wasted everyone's time - most of all his) but I know many children who need a special school place who cannot access one. Mainstream education is cheaper.

saintlydamemrsturnip · 04/10/2009 22:16

PECS claw?

saintlydamemrsturnip · 04/10/2009 22:20

Incidentally had we not moved when we did we would be living in a council with no suitable school for ds1. In our current city there are 2 SLD schools. On paper they are the same, but whilst ds1's suits him and meets his needs (and we are v happy with it) the other one would not have been suitable at all. Our LEA has a much higher number of special schools than is usual in the UK these days.

2shoes · 04/10/2009 22:23

we have quite a fw, but the only one suitable for dd, is an independant one out of the "area"

saintlydamemrsturnip · 04/10/2009 22:25

Yes that's the thing isn't it. Given the diversity of disability having special schools locally doesn't make them suitable. But sending a child out of area costs more, so of course the LEA's try to pretend they're suitable when they're not.

2shoes · 04/10/2009 22:26

oh they want her out of it, they are trying to move her for 16 plus!!!

silverfrog · 04/10/2009 22:32

donkeyderby:

I don't know if your comments were aimed at me. I thought I had been clear that everythig I have written has been in my experience - both of the SLD school dd1 was offered, and of how the schools she has attended have affected her.

The SLD school I saw was great, and incredibly valuable for the children who needed it. It was not suitable for dd1.

I do not htink that all children at SLD schools are incapable of learning, and I know very well that some will be able to read and write. None at the school dd1 was offered could, and when we mentioned that as a reason why it was unsuitable, we were told we were aiming too high for dd1. this was only a year ago, and over the past year she has begun to (very hesitantly) read.

The staff at the school dd1 should have attended classed her as non-responsive and noted that we overstated her abilities. they had asked dd1 her brother's name (she has a sister, and so was quite obviously confused) and also asked her to give them a square form a set of bricks. it was a rectangle, and dd1 sat very still staring at the shapes not knowing what to hand over as there was no square there. Couple this with the fact that the SALT attached ot the school ignored dd1's repeated (polite, not insistent)requests for her to read a story and carried on insisting that dd1 did a PECS exchange for an activity that dd1 did not even like (bloddy bubbles again). whenever the SALT asked what dd1 would like to do, dd1 said "read dinosaur book please", but this was the wrong answer - she was supposed ot PECS exchange for bubbles, when she was at that point afraid of bubbles. these are part of the reasons why the school was wrong for dd1 - dd1's potential was being totally gnored in the staff's quest for dd1 to fit into their criteria.

moondog · 04/10/2009 22:38

Claw, yes it could be PECS or a more general visual system.You need to ask and have its purpose clarified.

I don't think special schools are all bad. Heavens, no. The best school I have ever worked in (and I have worked in scores of m/s and s/n settings) was a special school.

PeachyTentativelyPosting · 04/10/2009 22:59

The Special School ds3 attends caters for children on teh 98th centile across the board, it is fabulous. OTOH ds1 qualifies for nothing, 10 hours small group provision in a statement and that's it.

It comes down to cash; ds3 got his palce because he has a tendency to bolt and the special fencing tehy needed (conservation area) cost £££££; ds1 OTOH does not do that so a SNU palce would cost more. Quite posibly not as much as the prison place he might eventually need, but thats met from a different budget.

I'dlove ds1 to go to the AS unit that runs at age 11, no chance. I;d love ds3 to remain in SN education; not a chance, he'll be back in MS at 11 as there are 11 places in our city.

It all comes down to funding. Our LEA runs intermediate level schools but only offers TA support up to 16 hours; tehreby children like ds3 benefit as the TA fuding and otyher provision is costly and wefinally got the palce we begged for; OTOH ds2's friend who ahs a physical disability but needs help with that has to constantly fight to maintain a MS place that he clearly suits.

the system is a mess. DS1 constantly attacks us and ds3 is getting ever more aggressive, but that's at home so irrelevant to them. At the stage they turn 11 I am considering hiding away on a desert island and lettings oemone elsedeal with the fallout.

claw3 · 04/10/2009 23:04

Saintly and Moondog - The cards seem to be very personal and target his needs. He has a very good vocabulary, but has problems asking for help or communicating his needs.

For example if he cannot put the straw in his drink, he will just not drink, rather than ask for help, so he will have a card to show when he wants help. If he is feeling sad, threatened etc, he has a card to show so he can go to his mentors office, toilet needs etc, etc.

Is PECS more general? (i havent actually seen the cards yet, they will be starting on tomorrow.

claw3 · 04/10/2009 23:17

Also Moondog - It seems the school are just going to give ds the cards and tell him what they are for.

I really cant see him giving a card to anyone, is there a procedure involved, are they suppose to 'train' him?

He really doesnt like a fuss, he just wants to melt into the background iyswim.

moondog · 04/10/2009 23:23

If it is PECS then yes, there is a precise procedure used which specifically tackles children who find initiating difficult. If it is done properly it needs people who are very highly trained in its correct use. Other more general picture systems can work if a child shows an ability to initiate and has good picture skills.

Ask the salt and/or teacher and in the meantime, check out the Pyramid websitee, Pyramid being official PECS trainers.

claw3 · 04/10/2009 23:36

Thanks Moondog will check out the website.

Thats the whole problem i think he would have good picture skills, but there is no way on earth he will initiate.

Still i will be accused of being negative, so i will show willing. Thanks again.

moondog · 05/10/2009 00:27

No, your point is utterly valid which is why PECS is so great.It teaches kids to initiate.
Please look into it-sounds like it would suit your child.

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