in thinking that refusal of a Special School place for your SEN child is totally mystifying?

[notanumber]

I read this article about the growing numbers of children exluded from primary school in The Telegraph today.

It is absolutely beyond me why some parents are so hellbent on keeping their child in mainstream education when alternative provison would clearly be so much better for all involved.

"Then the head teacher called to say that she had found a place for George at a most excellent school ? a special school for children with moderate to severe learning difficulties. David was 'appalled'. Not only had the school negotiated a place without consulting them, but also 'it showed a complete misunderstanding of George,' David says. George, he stresses, 'is a mainstream child."

How is a child who bites and scratches, lashes out when asked to hold a pencil and bolts from the classroom "a mainstream child"?

I'm not saying that they are wrong to question and be critical of the way the school handled their son. Mainstream education is, I think, often woefully inadequate for (some) children with SEN.

But if they are so disgusted at how mainstream school is handling their child's needs, why the blazes are they doggedly keeping him there and not jumping at the chance for him to go to a special school?

I'm a teacher and if my child had SEN that were causing him the horrible difficulties that the family in the article describe and he was then offered the chance of a specialist tailored education in a Special School I wouldn't think twice.

This is not an attack on all parents who have children with SEN. I know there will be lots of posters who are desperate for their child to be offered a Special School place but have to work with the mainstream system as best they can.

I also know that inclusion has worked really well for many children. Please don't think that I am airily saying that if your SEN child is in mainstream education this is automatically the wrong place for them, or that you don't care about their wellbeing.

I am just genuinely bemused by this couples' attitude. Do they really think that they are acting in their child's best interests by refusing the Special School place he was offered?

Notanumber
you have picked out and quoted my post in your slightly lecturing reply about how people hadn't read your OP

You have actually cut a section of my post and inserted [because] into it to make your quote read as if the only point I made was the one you quoted.

In fact I described many ways in which your op is uninformed shit. Cutting and pasting my reply to quote it abridged and therefore out of context was a bit silly really.

And this is a serious issue and you stuck it in AIBU.

In what way is it out of context?

I clearly indicated that the [because] was my own insertion. The only thing I removed was a full stop. How on earth have I misrepresented what you were saying?

As for putting it in AIBU, you don't get to decide what goes where. This wan't a vicious rant, I tried to be balanced about the shortcomings of both the Mainstream and Special School systems. I'm not trying to belittle a serious issue.

I was at pains in my OP to stress that I am not attacking parenmts of children with SEN nor the children themselves. I also indicated that mainstream education works well for some children with SEN and that some children who would benefit from Special School places are unable to get one.

It does concern me that you seem so ready to dismiss any opinions on this subject other than those which are from other parents of children with SEN.

Teachers, LEAs and yes - parents of other children who share a class with your child - are entitled to opinions around the issue.

'alternative provison would clearly be so much better for all involved' How?

I am uninformed about this child, yes, if what you mean is that I only have the article to go on. But so do you, so that makes us even then.

I've been a teacher for many years. I've seen lots of children with a variety of complex SEN come into my classroom. Some have achieved brilliantly, others have found it much harder. I'd like to think that I've done my absolute best to support each and every one of them.

But this makes me "uninformed" because I am not the parent of a child with SEN and I'm questioning the actions of someone who is?

Ok then. As I said, let's just get rid of anyone at all having any opinion or say in how a child with SEN should be provided for apart from you. That'll work.

claw - alternatitive provision would be better becuase the situation clearly was not working as it was.

notanumber, I think the problem these parents in the article faced is that, though their son's behaviour was very bad, his IQ was such that sticking him in a school for children with severe learning difficulties (which many "special" schools tend to be) wasn't right and wouldn't educate him at all. We use a particular kind of behavioural therapy, called ABA, with our autistic boy and find that we can get him to behave well by using firm boundaries, and - yes - sometimes with the right medication too. It is very difficult as although you teach some SEN kids, we are their mums and we fight the most god-awful battles every day to get them a half-way decent education. It is very difficult for anyone who is not in the trenches to actually understand how hard it all is, which is why you are probably getting a bad reaction. Actually, your OP was very fairly worded, and I think perhaps you have experience as a teacher of the flip side of mainstream inclusion, which is definitely a good issue to debate.

Notanumber - What makes you think George would be better off at a 'special school'?

Based on what 'the situation clearly not working as it was'?

Any child who has problems at school should be carted off to special school?

Oh, my mistake, you do think I'm entitled to my opinon!

I thought that when you told me that I've "...got to expect that those with more direct experience will call you on it." you were telling me that I don't have direct experience as I'm not a parent of a child with SEN and that is the only kind of experience that counts.

Hang on, wait. That's exactly what you were saying.

The child and parents described in the article probably don't even exist!
We looked around about 10 special schools to find the most appropriate for my child. Although a school may be classed as MLD or SLD/PMD there will be a wide range of abilities within that setting based on parental choice.

" Notanumber - What makes you think George would be better off at a 'special school'?"

Because almost everyone involved thought he would be. Because places are so hard to come by, you only get one if you really bloody need it.

"Based on what 'the situation clearly not working as it was'?"

He scratched, bit, bolted and had never completed a full week in school. That's not working in my book.

"Any child who has problems at school should be carted off to special school?"

Yep. That's exactly what I'm saying.

sickofsocalledexperts, you genuinely do have my very real sympathy.

I know how very hard it is for so many families, it must feel like a constant battle to be fighting for what your kids need and are entitled to.

Teachers (most of us anyway) really are on your side, and do the best that they can with the limited resources available to them.

So all children who scratch, bite and bolt should be placed in special schools?

Surely the problems should be dealt with rather than passing the buck, otherwise would we not just end up with a school full of children who scratch, bite and bolt?

notanumber everyone is entitled to an opinion we tried mainstream on the advise of educational psychologist it was a disaster and as I said had to fight to get him out he is thankfully at a brilliant school now but it is exhausting as he doesn't sleep and has to leave at 7.15 to be there for 8.45 most parents with SEN kids make huge sacrifices for their education and welfare.

hmm so if children tha t scratch boltand bite should be placedin sen schools ,
where would my ds with sn and yes mld go he is caperable of learning yes not at same pace as other nt kids and not in same way .

He is in ams school with f/t 1-1.But his lsa is not trained at all atm his caperalites far outstrip hers but he does not belong in the klocal sn chol wich caters mostly for children with asd

If the special school he had been offered a place at was specialised in children with behavioural problems then you might have a point. But it wasn't. So really you don't.

The school 'George' was at couldn't cope and was looking for a solution to that problem, which for them was about moving him elsewhere. His parents solution wasn't quite the same. Why does that mean they weren't acting in their child's best interest?

If he had had a learning disability then the special school might well have offered a specialist tailored education for him, but he didn't, he had ADHD. That his headteacher thought it would work doesn't necessarily mean he was right. Professionals are quite capable of getting things wrong, and in any case it my well have been that the school was offering an assessment with view to attendance, rather than a place outright (which seems unlikely to me).

yep roffesionals get it wrong my ds was told we could not access a out ofcounty sn school for him as i their words he needs to hear laungge to learn to talk .Hmm this is a child who we know will never talk due to brain damgebut hey Ep met him once and knows whats best for my son yet I looked after him for 4 years

Special schools are not a one size fits all

Blueshoes - I posted earlier and forgot to answer your question. Sorry.

I'm not honestly sure what the answer is. I think in an ideal world I would like a m/s school with an attached unit for children who are bright but also have SN.

My ds has ASD and is a bright boy. Academically he would do well in a m/s secondary but I worry how he would cope with having several teachers who know him a little rather than one or two who know him very well as is the case at primary school (he's in Yr5).

So I suppose that really what I would like for him is a chance in m/s secondary (he knows our local one fairly well) but with somewhere for him to go if it gets too much for him and he can't cope.

The chances of this being available are miniscule. I think in our entire area there are probably 6 places available. There are probably this many children with ASD in his current school alone.

gah.
both ds and dd1 have had their education disrupted - not by sn children, but by the frankly inadequate provision for those children doled out by the lea and in turn teachers.

i encourage any parent to voice their opinion on their own child's education if this is being affected by a classmate - but any opinion on which is the right provision for an sn child is frankly none of their business.

teachers and the lea? please feel free to express an opinion - but if the difficulties are being exacerbated by your handling of the situation, please be prepared to be called on it.

george seems to be doing well in his new setting - at least there has been a happy ending to the miserable handling of his education so far.

dd2 has cerebral palsy and an iq of 142. i still get teachers who stroke her arm, say 'bless', and bung her in the bottom group with the 'other' sn kids. at least george's parents were sufficiently robust enough to recognise that this was not the right setting for their child. i feel very strongly for other parents who trust the professionals to get it right, and blindly follow their advice, often leaving their child in the wrong setting and unable to reach their potential.

'other' is about the extent of the ability to identify and distinguish sn/sen within the uk education system.

i do of course generalise . dd2 has also had some brilliant teachers/ TAs (once they stop patronising her). largely this is to do with her educating them lol.

nooka, I don't claim to be an expert. What I was saying in my OP was that I would definitely take notice of those people who are.

However, I do understand that many parents of children with SEN are understandably wary of 'experts', and of course they are the ones who know their children best.

But sometimes surely this means that they are unable to make a dispassionate judgement about where (educationally) the best place for the child is. I'm not for a moment trying to claim that LEAs etc are completely unbiased, either however.

Of course I don't know all the details about this child, but based on the information available to me it does very much seen as though everyone apart from the parents thought that provision outside of the mainstream would best meet his needs. I was wondering why the parents rejected this assessment out of hand.

If I had numerous people telling me that my son was unhappy where he was and that it wasn't really working (and I could see this with my own eyes) and then they offered me a solution, I'd certainly very seriously consider it.

For a special school to work it has to be the RIGHT special school. "George" might be challenging, but does he have exceptionally low intelligence.

There are lots of different types of special school. Since "George" is not severely disabled he would be unsuited to an SLD school. He might be suited for a special school for EBD children or possibly ASD.

However many special schools do not put children in for GCSE. It is very damming to decide that such a young child is not capable of GCSE.

PerryP -- your dream provision is pretty much what my bright ASD boy gets at secondary, and it works so well that last year he admitted to linking school for the first time ever. I think EVERY secondary probably needs exactly that sort of provision for AS and ASD pupils.

Yes, we know how lucky we are. Wishing you all the best for your boy.

Notanumber - My own ds has SN's and its taken me years to understand his disorder and behaviour and im still discovering new things as we go along.

Any child with SEN is a very complicated, complex,individual and basing an opinion on something read in a paper, would be a very ill informed opinion as to whether the boy in question should or should not attend a 'special school'.

madwomanintheattic - "teachers and the lea? please feel free to express an opinion - but if the difficulties are being exacerbated by your handling of the situation, please be prepared to be called on it."

I really do think that he vast majority of teachers do the absolute best they can with children with SEN in their classroom. Often with great success.

Resources, training and support is rather thin on the gound though unfortunately, and the outcome is often rather less satisfactory than the child, the child's parents, the other classmembers and the teacher themselves would wish.

Please don't blame the teachers for this, I really don't think it's helpful.