in thinking that refusal of a Special School place for your SEN child is totally mystifying?

[notanumber]

I read this article about the growing numbers of children exluded from primary school in The Telegraph today.

It is absolutely beyond me why some parents are so hellbent on keeping their child in mainstream education when alternative provison would clearly be so much better for all involved.

"Then the head teacher called to say that she had found a place for George at a most excellent school ? a special school for children with moderate to severe learning difficulties. David was 'appalled'. Not only had the school negotiated a place without consulting them, but also 'it showed a complete misunderstanding of George,' David says. George, he stresses, 'is a mainstream child."

How is a child who bites and scratches, lashes out when asked to hold a pencil and bolts from the classroom "a mainstream child"?

I'm not saying that they are wrong to question and be critical of the way the school handled their son. Mainstream education is, I think, often woefully inadequate for (some) children with SEN.

But if they are so disgusted at how mainstream school is handling their child's needs, why the blazes are they doggedly keeping him there and not jumping at the chance for him to go to a special school?

I'm a teacher and if my child had SEN that were causing him the horrible difficulties that the family in the article describe and he was then offered the chance of a specialist tailored education in a Special School I wouldn't think twice.

This is not an attack on all parents who have children with SEN. I know there will be lots of posters who are desperate for their child to be offered a Special School place but have to work with the mainstream system as best they can.

I also know that inclusion has worked really well for many children. Please don't think that I am airily saying that if your SEN child is in mainstream education this is automatically the wrong place for them, or that you don't care about their wellbeing.

I am just genuinely bemused by this couples' attitude. Do they really think that they are acting in their child's best interests by refusing the Special School place he was offered?

claw3, I'm not basing my opinion on whether the child in question should attend a Special School or not on what I read in the article any more or less than you are.

I'm just saying that if I had numerous people telling me that my son was unhappy where he was and that it wasn't really working (and I could see this with my own eyes) and then they offered me a solution, I'd certainly very seriously consider it.

My reading is that they don't consider it to be a solution. That is what you don't seem to be taking on board.

YABVU.

I am also a teacher and know that some children should not be in my school, as there are special schools more appropriate for their needs.

But my son is the "child who bites and scratches, lashes out when asked to hold a pencil and bolts from the classroom" and he is also "a mainstream child".

Maybe not if we lived elsewhere, but here, absolutely.

J is 8, has autism and ADHD as well as a host of sensory problems and possible dyspraxia. He behaved like a wild animal in Reception but has gradually become more and more able to handle his emotions and conform more when necessary. He has a full time Statement and lots of help from outside agencies. His TAs are all trained in restraint and he has his own room to go to when needed to calm down. He is very very bright.

However, there was a time when the HT, behind my back, arranged a place for him at the local EBD school. Not appropriate for children with autism.

Nor was the school for children with severe autism, as most of them are non-verbal and he is extremely verbal.

Nor were any of the multitude of units or special primary schools round here, who all cater for MLD or SLD - he has neither.

Anyway, he will be growing up in mainstream society. He is bright enough to go to uni and have a job, though will always need a lot of help with non-academic stuff. So I guess it's good that he is educated in mainstream society. I agree for some children that inclusion is exclusion, but not in his case. He has friends and is progressing well. Any of the special schools round here would have been really inappropriate.

If there was a mainstream round here with ASD unit, it'd be better. If there was a school for bright ASD kids, it'd be better. Less stress for him and for others.

Not every child ticks a box. J is like George in many ways and I would do the same as his parents.

I do totally accept the point that many of you have made about Special Schools not all being the same and that 'a special school for children with moderate to severe learning difficulties' may not have been appropriate for this child.

I have to say that I remain confused as to why they would offer him a place that isn't suitable for him when it is clear (from these boards alone!) that there are countless other children for whom it is.

I can't see that this would happen unless the many people involved really did think that it was the best place for him.

Notanumber - Without knowing the child in question, his needs etc, everyones opinion is worth shit, is what im saying.

If you had numerous people telling you YOUR son needed this and needed that, then your opinion would count. But he is not YOUR son, he is not MY son.

Its easy to sit and judge.

Thefallenmadonna - no, I do get that. But as I have said, if everyone else thinks it was the solution, then, well.. maybe it was.

Surely not everyone was plotting against them to put the child in a Special School that they knew damn well was unsuitable, just for a a laugh?

claw - I wasn't talking about your son, I was talking about the child in the article.

I am really pleased that you've had a positive outcome.

my son was at a special unit for behavioral difficulties in primary totally unsuitable but the best available he quite often hid under tables especially when some of the other boys kicked off now he's at his high school which actually caters for children from 5-17 P1-S5 he is alot easier to manage at home and his ADHD is less noticeable but the Autism is more obvious George would of benefited from a behavioral unit not a school for children with severe learning difficulties.

I don't mean in any way to underestimate or belittle how difficult it can be at times the have the battles you have to fight for an SEN child.

However, I am wary of this attitude that '"everyone's opinion is worth shit" apart from mine as the parent.'

someguy said at the very beginning of the thread that,

"it's not really reasonable to say that the parents should be able to choose - if a child is disrupting the education of others to the degree that's being described, the other parents should be very angry.

'Since starting nursery at the age of three [he] has barely done a full week at school.' That for me spells out that a lot of other children's education have been damaged. I don't think parents should have a right to do that at all."

I do think that there is something in that. The child's needs are of course vital, but there are other people's needs that need to be considered also, and they do have a right to an opinion and a say, IMO.

Notanumber - I know you were not talking about my son!

How about chaining the boy up in the class room or perhaps put him in a cage, like the good ole days.

like i said if the issues are being exacerbated by your handling of the situation, be prepared to be called on it. i have no doubt that most teachers do their level best with the limited facility/ training/funding given, that wasn't really my point.

of course a teacher's opinion should be taken into account alongside that of the other professionals involved with the child and the parents. in george's instance they didn't even bother to include the parents in the search for a solution to a situation that was clearly not working.

the sad thing about george's story is that it seems the school had plenty of professional input re target setting and behaviour management, but failed to implement it. rather a case of 'well, it's a bit tricky - how about we offload this kid?'

none of us will ever know, really. i'm just pleased he's in a setting where he is able to access his education. i would love to know what the new setting is doing differently tbh - without being overly confrontational, it can get to a point with some children that the old saying 'give a dog a bad name and hang him' comes into effect - the school can't be bothered to try any new strategy as they have effectively written the child off, and a change of setting and slightly different boundarys and behaviour management has a lot more success with a previously unmanageable child...

tbh that's the real reason why i'm wary of a 'failing' setting expressing an opinion without involving the parents, i think. of course every child is an individual - some will require the provision of a specialist sn school. some will not.

Well clearly the teachers at his new school didn't agree, as they wouldn't have offered him a place at their mainstream primary school would they? Where (again from this article) he seems to be doing much better. The information offered in the article is pretty paltry I think to be able to make any judgment on whether the parents in this case are right or wrong. Clearly there are cases where parents are in denial, but then there are also cases where the educational system is too (as can be seen from this thread).

But your OP was AIBU in thinking that refusing a Special School place is "totally mystifying" and the answer is that yes you are unreasonable in thinking that. There are many reasons why a parent might refuse a place, especially when that place appears to be totally unsuitable. (Or where it looks like the headteacher is just trying to get rid of a problem).

My ds has some SEN (he's dyslexic and has some behavioural issues, which we absolutely acknowledge, and which we try to work with school to manage) he's also very bright (this is not just our opinion, but tends to be the first thing all his teachers say - as in "he's very bright but..."). If it was suggested he moved to the same school as his cousins (SLD) I would be horrified. It is a fantastic school, but the children there will never live independently, struggle to communicate and have significant needs. I am sure he would enjoy all the great kit they have, but he would learn very little (for example they don't do any exams, and many children there will never read or write, indeed some of them will never speak). It would also be a total waste of a very specialist very expensive place. Now I am sure this little boy has more significant difficulties than my ds, but specialist schools are very specialist, and not a place to put any child that mainstream isn't coping with very well. Otherwise you would need many many more of them, and probably very different provision too.

On the other hand I was surprised on reading the article that they hadn't moved 'George' to a private school with more rigid routine/discipline and much smaller classes, as clearly they are very wealthy (from all the unnecessary isn't their house lovely). Of course once diagnosed with problems lots of private schools don't want SEN kids.

lol, yes, other parents should be very angry. but they should be angry at the inadequacy of the system and lack of provision, not at the sn child and his parents, which is sadly often the outcome.

i encourage all parents to approach the school or lea if their child's education is being affected by an sn classmate, as i said before. sadly a lot of parents fail to empathise lol, and barge into the head's office demanding that x be excluded.

far more beneficial if they demanded that x's needs be met, allowing all the children involved to reach their potential, but hey, that costs more.

exclude and then ship off to a special school. far easier for the ms provision, but unfortunately sometimes of little use to x.

not in my back yard, indeed.

notanumber:

I have read about half this thread, and one thing you said jumped out at me, in particular.

you were quite scathingly sarcastic about the fact that a family would never be offered a place at an unsuitable SN school, because clearly the LA would give that place to a child suited to the school.

My daughter is autistic. She was diagnosed at just over 2.6 (after many a battle over whether she was too young to be diagnosed, and after spending over a year "waiting and seeing")

To date, she has been in an unsuitable private nursery (as recommended by her Senco)

an unsuitable pre-school (as recommended by her Senco)

an ASD pre-school which we hoped against hope would be suitable, but sadly isn't.

We have, along the way, privately funded a home ABA programme. THis is the only provision which has helped dd1 learn anyhting - you know, proper, honest-to-god learning (we also funded the nursery and the private SN school too)

we have had to fight each step of the way to get to where we are - which is, quite frankly, nowhere near where we should be.

dd1 was offered an SLD school. It was so far form suitable for her as to be laughable. Why was she offered it? because her Senco and SALT thought she would fit right in - mainly due to the fact that despite their apparent best efforts, dd1 wasn't talking at school. so they spent a lot of time and effort trying methods which she didn't need (communication books and PECS systems) rather than spend the time getting her to use the pseech she had. so in their thoguhts, she would fit right in in the SLD school becasue the other puils didn't speak either - they cuoldn't, and were unlikely to ever speak.

we moved across the country so that dd1 would not have to attend a school where all they would ever expect of her would be that she handed over a picture card to get some bubbles, or to get someone to turn on the light tube, etc. I was shown around the sensory room, and the aromatherpay room, and the sensory garden - all wonderful resources for the children who need them. when I asked where the library was, I was shown one shelf-ful of books. because the children at that school couldn't attend to books/sotires, apparentyl.

dd1 seized the nearest book, sat down, opened it and "read" it (it was one she owned, and she know the story off by heart) the staff were gobsmacked, but still thought she should attend the school.

we are now chasing an ABA school placement for dd1. she has been at a brilliant SN school, but it does not suit her, and she has again learnt nothing. the LA think she will be fine in their school, despite her EP seeing her at school completely blank, not engaging with anything, not speaking, and remaining expressionless and passive at all times (he was there for 3 hours).

he came to see her at home, at our insistence, and couldn't believe the lively, chatty, cheeky girl he saw, yet he is still recommending her for a school lacememtn which is unsuitable.

Being recommneded for the "wrong" SN school happens all the time. Our last county did not have a suitbale SN school for dd1 - they were all SLD schools. so instead of funding a place at a suitable school, their solution was ot send her to the unsuitbale one, and then, when she didn't progress, say "oh well, you have to acept that she may not talk/sing/read/walk/play football" - you name it, we've heard it (and yes, dd1 CAN do all the aforementioned)

read the SN board - it happens time and again, especially, imo, (although this may be just the cases I rememebr as dd1 is ASD) in ASD cases.

claw - I found your comment of, "how about chaining the boy up in the class room or perhaps put him in a cage, like the good ole days." a bit offensive actually.

I have never said that I think all kids with SEN should be in Special Schools. In fact I have repeatedly said the opposite, that ofetn mainstream works very well.

I'm very proud of what many of the the children with SEN I have taught over the years have achieved in my classroom.

I was saying that I was concerned by the parents' refusal to listen to the opinions of several people in this case.

Blimey. Sometimes you feel as though you can't win as a teacher. You try your hardest with what you've got at your disposal, but still, so many parents default response is to assume that you resent their child and are doing your upmost to kick them out as soon as possible.

Teachers are on your side for the most part, you know. Just like you, they want the best for your child.

Being nice and trying hard isn't good enough anymore Notanumber. It may have been 30 years ago but it won't cut the mustard for many (as Silverfrog states so eloquently).

What is needed is evidence based data driven intervention and that is not what is on offer in 95% of special or indeed m/s schools.
However nice and kind and caring and hardworking the staff are.

Notanumber - Despite just about every poster telling you why you should not be 'mystified' as to why the boys parents have refused the place, you seem unable to take this on board.

This stopped being a debate and turned in 'it doesnt matter what you say, i will never think i am unreasonable' some time ago.

Hence my rather flippant comment, i give up.

silverfrog - thank you for sharing your experience with me. It's really clarified what was bugging me about the article.

I had no idea that being recommended for the "wrong" SEN school happens (and happens frequently).

What a dreadful state of affairs.

That being the case, why do you suppose that this happens?

Moondog - "Being nice and trying hard isn't good enough anymore Notanumber."

Ok. That sounds a bit aggressive - was it meant to be? I don't want to take offence if none was intended.

What can individual teachers do - other than the best with what resources are available to them - other than try hard?

notanumber things like this happen because like everything in life it just boils down to money we were lucky we got the funding to go out with the area before finding a school it isn't always the way. Although we are in Scotland I don't know how it works else where.

As a professional in this field I would say the main obstacle to improved services for kids with SN is an arrogant assuption by professionals that they genuinely know what is best for a child.

Additionally, poor training (driven by half baked 'theories' of education rather than evidence based intervention).

I have been working in this field for many years and until I found out about ABA and other evidence based intervention I probably genuinely believed I was offering a good service. It was ok but what I can ofer now is hundreds of times better.

I've just finished my MSc in ABA (this week!) and it has changed my likfe both personally and professionally, not least as the parent of a child with language difficulties who has come on leaps and bounds once I began to use ABA with her and took steps to ensure that others did too.

claw - Right you are then.

I really don't think implying thatI cannot teach children with SEN with any sensitivity or effectiveness was necessary. But whatever.

moondog I keep reading about this ABA what is it Ive never heard of it.

Notanumber, no sorry, it wasn't meant to be aggressive although I concede it sounded aggressive. |Your point is a fair one. However, in the case of parents who post on here and who have made huge financial and personal sacrifices to provide thier children with the education to which they are legally entitled for free it would be very useful if the 'professionals' stopped, thoguht and listened instead of dismissing everythnig that does not fit into present narrow protocol.

Happily many do, including many peopel I work with in Health and Education.

Notanumber - My own ds is due to be assessed by a 'special school'. The idea is that the teacher from the 'special school' attends twice a week to work with him. If this doesnt work then i get the feeling, my ds's school will know of an excellent school!

The reason being he is hit, punched, strangled, kicked, lunch stolen etc, etc by the main stream school kids. He doesnt have an aggressive bone in his body, should the aggressors who dont have SN's be put into special school?

Academically he is bright, socially he is having a nightmare, the school would rather cart him off to 'special school' its easier, it looks better in the Ofsted report, than having a bullying problem.

Its not always black and white.