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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

AIBU - sexist science homework

519 replies

Litchick · 17/09/2009 09:06

Lst night's science homework was to write a short passage about a famous scientist, what they discovered and its applications today.

Fine except that each question said 'he'.

Eg what was his name? What did he discover?

DD and I chose Marie Curie and changed everything to she.

AIBU to make the point on the prep sheet or just touchy?
Does it matter? It felt to me like it does. Grrrr

OP posts:
Grisette · 21/09/2009 09:19

Don't get me wrong, Darwin did world changing science, and is totally inspirational, but so did Marie Curie and all the other female scientists above. When you ask a class to draw a scientist, and at any age group, they draw a white man with white hair in a white coat, I think its important to highlight the people that don't conform to stereotype.

Dophus · 21/09/2009 09:37

I am a neuroscientist working in the pharmaceutical industry. It is interesting that more of the associates/technicians are female (i.e. lab workers, bench scientists) whilst the majority of the senior sceintists are male - I am definistely in the minority and frequently the only woman in the room.

It is interesting that the only female neuroscientist to have become famous in the last few years is, without doubt, a blonde bimbo and has contributed nothing to science! (Susan Greenfield)

UnquietDad · 21/09/2009 09:45

edam I did not say "the choice of words is not important". I just think there are two separate issues - whether a generic "he" exists (it does, despite what some people think) and whether the teacher, if indeed it was the teacher who wrote this worksheet, was well-advised to use it (still being debated).

AtheneNoctua · 21/09/2009 10:42

The use of he as the generic is a tad archaic really. When I was a child in seventies, this probably still the case. Although it was beginning to evolve then. Now, some 30 years later, I think we mostly evolved.

It is not really acceptable to say "he" when you should say "he or she" or even "she or he" which still sounds a bit awkward, but why should it?

They and their are not singular and are thus just plain wrong. I too cringe when I see letters home from school with this appaulling grammar. It makes me want to send the teacher a grammar book and then go test her (or him).

AtheneNoctua · 21/09/2009 10:44

oh jeez, you'd think that if I am going to moan about grammar, I could get my own spellings right and remember to type all the words of the sentences.

Go on, pull me up on it... I deserve it.

MrsMerryHenry · 21/09/2009 10:52

UQD I agree that 'he' is used with 'neutral intentions', and with a different connotation from 'he' used to describe a specific person. However I also agree with Athene that this is simply unacceptable. Although I'm not fluent in any language other than English, I do know enough to know that French, German and I believe Spanish all have a neutral personal pronoun which are still used in daily speech (though ironically, in German, it's 'man'! Although the German word for man is 'Mann' so I'm not sure the root is the same). It's possible that these languages wouldn't use their neutral pronouns in quite the way that we are discussing, though - any foreign language experts on this thread who can provide more insight?

In the English language, as far as I know the only neutral personal pronoun we have is 'one', which is so archaic that it's now virtually obsolete and sounds terribly poncey. It also somehow doesn't sound as fully personal as 'he' or 'she' - for instance, I find it irritating to use the word 'he' to refer to God, who I see as both male and female. But I wouldn't feel that 'one' would be an effective substitute.

'One' feels a step removed from the personal - it's almost a way of effecting a sense of distance from the conversation topic so as to make it sound less personal:

-----
She sells seashells on the sea shore.

One sells seashells on the sea shore.

-----

Doesn't work, does it?!

MrsMerryHenry · 21/09/2009 10:53

Athene - I was going to, but decided to ignore it as your point was so jolly sound!

ZephirineDrouhin · 21/09/2009 11:11

Unquietdad, the rules of grammar didn't come down from Mount Sinai carved in stone. Using "he" in this context is likely to give the message to children that science is a male preserve, and this makes it inappropriate regardless of whether it deemed "correct" in 1850. No doubt the teacher simply hadn't thought about it, but the op was quite right to challenge it.

Athene, see GrendelsMum's post of 14:54 regarding the use of they.

gallery · 21/09/2009 12:51

I once went to a lecture on why there are no famous women in art and culture (I mean old old art and culture, there are lots of famous women now). It was a fascinating perspective on culture at the time and society acceptance of women 'working' or presenting something as their own. This lecture was about 20 years ago but the gist was that there were lots of women who had the gifts and produced art or music but may have had to present it as a man. So a brother, father etc took the credit. Also, we tend to think historically when we say famous, I love the more modern examples presented above. I am a scientist and there are very few women in my industry so I am grateful when I do get to work with another woman. OP, well done for picking it up and presenting an alternative view.

LadyMidnightMT · 21/09/2009 13:16

lol OOM. And you deduced from that snippet that it was becasue they were women and nothing to do with caste or some local phenomenon? And that further all stereotypes are socially decided? Thourough bit of research there

UnquietDad · 21/09/2009 14:16

Zephirine -but you need to look at the intention. I have repeatedly agreed throughout the thread that language is changing and so you can't pick me up on that. But some people seem determined to "prove" that there is no such thing as a generic "he" in English, and I'm afraid i can't agree with that - it's like saying "manhole" and "mankind" don't exist. You may not like them - which is a whole other argument.

ZephirineDrouhin · 21/09/2009 14:26

Why do you have to look at the intention? Nobody is suggesting having the teacher arrested, we just want him or her to stop doing it. The effect is the issue, not the intention.

Who has been trying to disprove the existence of generic he? Clearly it was in common usage in the past but is increasingly considered inappropriate. I haven't seen anyone arguing more than this.

UnquietDad · 21/09/2009 14:27

Well, I have had a few responses to my suggestion that there might be such a thing.

I am still not clear if the teacher wrote the thing. Ir if the teacher was male or female.

ZephirineDrouhin · 21/09/2009 14:34

I am fairly certain that the responses were more to do with your description of "he" as "the correct generic" than with the idea that it should exist at all.

Why does it matter whether the teacher was male or female, and whether they wrote the worksheet themselves?

UnquietDad · 21/09/2009 14:41

"Why does it matter whether the teacher was male or female, and whether they wrote the worksheet themselves?"
Well, because everyone is assuming this is the work of a teacher, and the subtext I'm picking up is that people secretly think this was a male teacher. But I could be wrong.

And "he" is a grammatically correct generic in English. It is a homonym of the masculine singular pronoun. Do you people not know what a homonym is?? Now, it's fair enough to have a discussion about whether using it could be ambiguous, and whether the usage could lead to people thinking there was some kind of (intentional or not) sexist undertone.

I like to think most parents are clued-up enough to point daughters in the direction of well-known female scientists, to be honest. There is a bit of "protesting too much" going on here.

ZephirineDrouhin · 21/09/2009 14:42

And in my last sentence, do you really think that a more "correct" version would have been:

Why does it matter whether the teacher was male or female, and whether he wrote the worksheet himself?

It should be, by your logic.

UnquietDad · 21/09/2009 14:44

It's not "my logic." And did you actually read what I wrote?

ZephirineDrouhin · 21/09/2009 14:56

I did read it. I think you are quite wrong about the idea that there is some subtext in this thread about the teacher being male - I can't see where you have got this from at all. It would be more productive to argue with what has actually been said than with something you are imagining people might be thinking, don't you think?

I'm still not sure why you keep saying that the generic he is grammatically correct, as though that makes it somehow unarguable.

UnquietDad · 21/09/2009 14:58

I'm not necessarily claiming the teacher is male. I just think it would be interesting to know.

I have tried to take care (as some people have not) to separate out the arguments as to whether it is a legitimate generic from those about the supposed subtext of the usage.

Sorry if some people don't find this useful.

corriefan · 21/09/2009 15:00

The OP said during the course of this thread that the teacher was female btw.

UnquietDad · 21/09/2009 15:01

oh, OK sorry - I missed that. This thread has moved very fast...

corriefan · 21/09/2009 15:13

I know! I also just want to say I understand what you mean that grammatically 'he' is a generic term and that taken in that sense the homework wasn't sexist, it was using slightly dated grammar.

MrsMerryHenry · 21/09/2009 15:15

corrie, surely the grammatical justification for using 'he' in this sense is outdated because it is sexist?

corriefan · 21/09/2009 15:40

Yes it is outdated but it might still be used.

I also agree that in this context it could be assumed that the author of the worksheet was unconciously conveying their own sexist assumptions that all famous scientists were male.

If it were my child coming home with this I would give the teacher the benefit of the doubt and see it as a mistake in either: their use of worksheet, the generic term 'he' or in their limited knowledge of famous scientists. I'd use the opportunity to talk to my child about female scientists etc., but I wouldn't go in and speak to the teacher about it as if she were on some secret mission to turn little girls into barbies and boys into action men. We all make mistakes.

MrsMerryHenry · 21/09/2009 15:43

No no no, my point is that it is sexist, and that being both sexist and out of date, it shouldn't be used. Though I think you're pretty much agreeing with that in your subsequent post.

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