to truly believe that there are too many people making living on benefits a lifestyle choice?

[preparestobeflamed]

While I really do feel for people, who through no fault of their own, find themselves on benefits, struggling to bring up their children on a pittance, am I the only one who truly believes that for a large number of people, living on benefits is a lifestyle choice??

It may just be the people I know, but I have one friend who refuses to work - no children or partner, another friend who from leaving school decided she was going to have children, has had 2 children by unknown fathers so far, and all at the tax payers expense and is now planning her 3rd, to some unsuspecting man she hopes to meet on a night out, and another friend who is due her 4th baby anyday, by a man who pays her no child support whatsoever, even though he is a high earner working full time and who lives in the next town with his mum and dad. She believes he will move in one day, i think not and when he does stay with her, she makes it public knowledge that she is continuing to claim she is an unemployed single parent to continue getting all the benefits, even when he has stayed for months and all those mentioned have the opinion that they are entitled to live off of benefits for as long as they live.

They just feel so entitled it's untrue!!!!

I am beginning to believe that people who do not pay tax should not be entitled to vote, since why should these people who do not contribute a penny to the system, and possibly may never contribute a penny to the system, be able to have a say as to how the money the country generates is spent????

I also am of the belief that anybody who does not have dependents, is not elderly, sick or disabled should not receive any benefit unless it is contribution based benefit.

Am I really BU??

Am I the only one who gets so angry at these lazy people, who live off of their children for as long as they can, and in some cases, are swayed to have children because they do not want to work??

thanks - we keep hoping that each new year will bring the good luck we think we're due.

Mind you this month has started ok - we had separated for a while and I was on benefits, and Tax Credits suddenly realised they owed me a reasonable sum of money from my single claim and put it in my account on Tuesday, then he "passed" the telephone interview for this job this morning.......just a selection thing to attend next week (which he should be fine with as he's done it all before in his previous "short term pain" job) and then hopefully(?) within a month he'll be working again.

My life is never dull

preparestobeflamed-

As much as I'm ever so grateful that you are allowing people to receive benefits, and the vote if they're lucky, you have to accept that part of the nature of the welfare state is that some people you don't like will be entitled to receive support. Some people who don't 'deserve' it will receive it. That's a price worth paying to receive free healthcare etc.

You seem to be advocating a return to the Victorian concept of the 'deserving poor'

And a 'whopping' £13587 per year?!?! whopping?!?!?

FFS...

tethersend

Whilst in your opinion, £13587 may not be a whopping amount, the point I was trying to make was that this is a whopping amount compared to the amount it would cost to 'help' these people back into work or retrain.

If you read back, you will see that was the point I was trying to make, and while one isolated case is not going to dent your pocket too much, there are more single parents on benefits in the UK now than there have ever been before and the number just keeps on rising.

What would you like to see?

We have a generation of kids leaving education, desiring nothing more than a lifetime on the dole.
Are you happy to pay for them until they retire?
I would personally rather my taxes were used to improve schools, hospitals and to adequately support the sick, elderly and disabled.

I reiterate, I do not have a problem with single parents being given support for a while, when they conceived whilst in solid stable relationships, only to find their relationship breaks down at a later date.

Basically, I'd like to see the govt weed out the shirkers (and that covers alot more than single parents imo).

And how would you describe the 'Victorian concept of the deserving poor'?

Isn't that very much the same sort of thing as we still do have today??

The only difference seems to be that in Victorian times, they selected people who could not work, and helped those, but didn't help the people who would not work.

I don't agree with the punishments they meted out, but their basic logic was okay.

Today, we just pay anyone, whether they can work or not. I wonder how long the country can sustain this level of support for this many people.

Clearly something has to be done and the govt know this, or why have they gradually reduced the amount of years a single parent can claim income support for before they have to go back onto JSA and look for employment??

I might actually just go and have a bit of a cry.

Tell me to hide this thread because the fury is upon me.

This is all so fucking depressing to be honest.

Tell me what you want to happen then prepares? Stop the benefits and let the children starve? Is this your solution?

but the majority on benefits only get by.just about coping.that is really hard

how can one live off children, given children have no econonic rent dont earn a wage?

It's not so much receiving benefits that I see as the problem, it's the getting further and further away from any semblence of work ethics which sets a bad example for the children.

I think that the benefits system is unquestionably absolutely essential for those who are struggling or can't work for genuine reasons, or have been made unemployed, or can't find jobs especially in areas of low employment.

However, to keep up morale, a sense of purpose and some kind of semblence to a working day I feel that long-term unemployed should have to do some sort of community work with their days. ie if they can't earn to put back into the community, then their time and effort can still be put to effective use.

What would happen if we all gave up working and went on benefits? There wouldn't be enough money for one week of benefits probably.

Also, I think that parenting classes should be compulsory for everyone regardless of "class", money, education etc as I think that bad parenting leads to a lot of future problems and some people just don't know how to parent effectively. Programmes like Supernanny and House of Tiny Tearaways help but there needs to be more to show effective reward and discipline techniques to those who have never had experience of either, sadly.

It also keeps them mentally more prepared for getting up and going to work if and when a suitable job comes along.

preparestobeflamed
I think the basic premise that you get a say in what your taxes are spent on is ludicrous. Our taxes are spent on weapons, hideous medical experiments and things we will never know about. We do not get a say. I would rather my taxes were spent on water slides, or face paints, but there you go. That is the nature of a democracy- if you disagree with it, use your vote.

I am alarmed at your lack of knowledge about Victorian society though- think carefully and do some research before you advocate a return to those times, or even agree with their 'basic logic'- child labour anyone? If you think that the brutality of the workhouses qualifies as 'help', then I really have to wonder if you are for real.

We are one of the richest countries in the world- rest assured, paying £13587 per year to single parents, even if it were to every single parent in the country, will not bring us to our knees.

whoisasking I feel the same.

tethersend

Let's hide the thread and go and read some nice funny threads in Mumsnet Classics instead.

I don't think the OP deserves a flaming, it's a complicated issue, and the OP has taken on board a lot of opposing comments.
Is this all about social inequality then? That people who see the choice is between living on benefits or working in a minimum wage job? Because they don't have the education, aspirations, role models, support to set their sights higher? So what's the answer to that?

i do eblieve the majority of people are on benefits byt circumstances not by choice

however my blood did boil slightly last night when a male friend of mine said he was not going to look for a job, he didnt want one, he was going to take me time and leach off the state(his words) for as long as possible because he felt it his right after paying into it and his business folding

and at the same time making plans to move into an expensive place , saying the council has an obligation to make sure he has housing so wont refuse his claim for rent

i reminded him he had a place to stay atm and that most landlords dont want tenants who claim housing benefits, and he won get much me time on the amount of benefits he will be receiving, as he wont be able to afford to do anything

he even turned down the chance of work another friend of mine offered him ffs

i am on benefits and not working but i disagree with his attitude

i hope one day to not be so reliant on the state, but like i said, my situation and for most people, it isnt an active choice

my friend did make me though

'and churning out children to avoid going to work,'

children are harder work than most jobs. Thats not why they do it I reckon.

I agree LadyStealthPolarBear.

It is a complicated issue, and I am all for a system where the poor are supported, but for the people who see that as their entitlement, who see it as their god given right to idly live off of other people for the rest of their lives, then that is so wrong imo.

It is not just single parents, there are many long term unemployed, no children, no one to care for, people who just prefer to sit around dossing their whole lives. Why should they be supported, if they can't be bothered to even try to support themselves EVER!!!

There are many people who are bestowing this attitude onto their children, and that sucks tbh.
It is so unfair to bring any child up to have such low expectations of how their lives are going to be.
What an awful legacy to give your beloved children.

Does anyone believe support should be offered freely for unlimited amounts of years to anyone who has no job, for whatever reason? would you be happy for your own children to spend years and years on the dole, lazing around, getting out of bed at some ungodly hour in the afternoon to doss with their friends every day, whilst slowly becoming more and more isolated, losing any motivation they have to improve their lives, and eventually to find after many years of this idleness that they are virtually unemployable??

Isn't it wrong to condone this attitude that some people have today?

And while we do not have a say in what our taxes get spent on tethersend, in an ideal world, why shouldn't we get a say?
And please tell me what support there was at all before the workhouses tethersend?

The workhouses were the country's first attempts at a welfare system, and although it was brutal, there were people who actually lived because of the workhouses. I do not think they should be re introduced, not at all, but please do not underestimate the amount of people who would have starved to death, had it not been for the workhouse. Many people were actually grateful for the workhouse when they had no other choice. There were also many people who feared the workhouse, I will not deny that, but the majority of the people who did end up in the workhouse had precious little other choices.
Without the workhouse, they would surely have died.
We have since improved the welfare state, which is a good thing, but now we do have the problem of some people taking the piss and choosing to live on benefit as a lifestyle choice.

And just to add, I absolutely do not agree with child labour, although I do agree that children should be brought up to believe that when they become adults, it is ultimately their responsibility to support themselves as far as possible, and not just rely on the govt to support them.

Without knowing the majority of people on benefits, i cannot say why they are!

What are basing this assumption on, one person you know?

Preparestobe - no, not true that the workhouses were the first attempt at a welfare system. Before the workhouses there was 'outdoor relief' (see eg here) so the poor could remain in their own homes.

I think the ridiculous tabloid reporting of cases where they are driving bmws wearing 'designer' clothes etc tc do nothing to dispel the myth that somehow this is a good way to live!Most people on benefits are scraping by

what utter rot about the workhouses

there were various forms of poor relief prior to the workhouse, every society has had its own forms of welfare

the workhouses represent one of the most heartless and punitive mentalities ever to govern this country

people died BECAUSE of the workhouses

they died of overwork, cold and disease

this thread is very depressing in places

people do not choose to be stuck in the poverty trap fgs

only an idiot would seriously contend that people choose it

lou33

Your friend has exactly the sort of attitude I am talking about. That sense of entitlement, of getting every penny they believe they are due, and turning down work, even when it is offered to them.

I wonder how many people will come into this thread and wholeheartedly support your friend in his decision, and make excuse after excuse for him?

As for churning out children, and children being hard work, I don't actually think anyone truly realises what is involved in bringing up children before they have them.

It is a sad state of affairs when anyone prefers to have children on the basis that it will be easier than working 8 hrs a day, but there are people who do believe that.

I know someone whose daughter never ever wants to work, and she is convinced that the way to a council house and a secure income, albeit a small one, is to have a baby. I thought that attitude was very outdated, so was surprised to hear her say that to me, and I then explained that she would in fact not have much money, and that it was unlikely that the council would be handing her a little house before she had her baby, and she could possibly be waiting for years for a home of her own, to which she replied 'Well my friend has just had a baby and she gets xxxx amount of money to live on, and is getting a council place soon.'

How many people reading this thread only managed to move out of their parents home because the council offered them a place because they had a child?? It happens, and for some people, who see no other way to get a place of their own ...............

I couldn't agree mor greensleeves.The idea that they are making a 'choice' is ridiculous.Some of them even think themselves that they have somehow outsmarted society with this 'choice' they have made which is the saddest thing of all.

have just read a book about the workhouses.frnakly, i would rather have died than live like that, as a slave , my children and husband somewhere else, never to be seen again. the workhouse was not a welfare system, it was a way for teh rich to lord it over the poverty stricken

i know one person living/scraping by on benefits, due to the breakdown of her marriage, she was a lone parent to 3, one of whom has SN and a sole carer for her father who has cancer, alzheimers and various other ailments. i would hardly say that was a lifestyle choice..

i know lots of people who are entitled to tax credits etc but won't claim after being messed around / stung for overpayments

the benefits system has some abusers, that is for sure though. but aren;'t there always millions of unclaimed benefits every year because people don;t know what they can rightly claim or how to claim?

I am actually finding this thread quite heartwarming, to think that there are so many people on here, who are only too happy to pay for everyone who doesn't want to work, whilst slogging their guts out themselves to do so.

It is nice to help people, I totally agree with that, but I am realising I am in a minority on here, because I am happy to help people who do want to help themselves, not those that just want to be a parasite.

Life is about give and take. Everyone gives and takes a little.
Maybe thats not what give and take means to some people on this thread, maybe it really means some do all the giving forever, and some do all the taking forever.

So you're not actually proposing a return to workhouses?

Really?

I am aghast to be honest. And I think that is EXACTLY what you want. Along with a bit of horse whip[ping for the cheeky povs who are taking money out of your pocket.

"Many people were actually grateful for the workhouse when they had no other choice" Fuck me.

problem is, once children are part of the mix, withdrawing benefits etc would cause more harm to the children, who don;t have a choice about whether to be born into that situation or not

you can argue that you don;t want to pay into the NHS to fund treatment for people who smoke/, take drugs, drink to excess etc..

it is a slippery slope to go down, choosing who is worthy of help and assistance

you have to ask yourself what chance there is for children whose parents and grandparents hvae not worked. you are not just born with a work ethic, you have to see it, you have to see it is worth the effort and the drive and the determination, otherwise you will sit on your bum ad infinitum.

the system may be abused by some, but it needs to be in place for those who genuinely need it

who the fuck are you to call somebody else a parasite?

You work - you pay your taxes. The elected government allocates the money and pays benefits to those who need them. That's all you need to know.

Let people with a social conscience and a grasp of the real world do the thinking, you're clearly not cut out for it.