to truly believe that there are too many people making living on benefits a lifestyle choice?

[preparestobeflamed]

While I really do feel for people, who through no fault of their own, find themselves on benefits, struggling to bring up their children on a pittance, am I the only one who truly believes that for a large number of people, living on benefits is a lifestyle choice??

It may just be the people I know, but I have one friend who refuses to work - no children or partner, another friend who from leaving school decided she was going to have children, has had 2 children by unknown fathers so far, and all at the tax payers expense and is now planning her 3rd, to some unsuspecting man she hopes to meet on a night out, and another friend who is due her 4th baby anyday, by a man who pays her no child support whatsoever, even though he is a high earner working full time and who lives in the next town with his mum and dad. She believes he will move in one day, i think not and when he does stay with her, she makes it public knowledge that she is continuing to claim she is an unemployed single parent to continue getting all the benefits, even when he has stayed for months and all those mentioned have the opinion that they are entitled to live off of benefits for as long as they live.

They just feel so entitled it's untrue!!!!

I am beginning to believe that people who do not pay tax should not be entitled to vote, since why should these people who do not contribute a penny to the system, and possibly may never contribute a penny to the system, be able to have a say as to how the money the country generates is spent????

I also am of the belief that anybody who does not have dependents, is not elderly, sick or disabled should not receive any benefit unless it is contribution based benefit.

Am I really BU??

Am I the only one who gets so angry at these lazy people, who live off of their children for as long as they can, and in some cases, are swayed to have children because they do not want to work??

Really is that true MillyR, that pregnancy rates actually go up among the doll girls?

Fascinating. I've always had my reservations about those dolls as they fail to mention the sheer pleasure of a small baby. And v. interesting what you are saying about banging on about how awful motherhood is, setting these girls up to expect it to be awful - self-fulfulling prophecies and all that...

I get you MillyR. I agree, the problem starts much younger than the stage of sex education. It's about poverty of ambition and by the time you are trying to convince teenage women to wait before having babies they already know people their age with babies, and they might be the age their mums were, they are leaving school and have literally nothing else to do and no reason to wait.

Sadly I have never seen a young parent through my work who has not had major issues with parenting/protecting their children. (I do work with very damaged young people). In my personal life I have friends who were teen mums and did a very good job of it. They were all accidents though, and they went on to work/study afterwards. The young parents I work with all should have waited at least 5-10 years for their childrens' sakes but they won't. Sad.

And they affect you and yours exactly how??

'I am beginning to believe that people who do not pay tax should not be entitled to vote, since why should these people who do not contribute a penny to the system, and possibly may never contribute a penny to the system, be able to have a say as to how the money the country generates is spent????'

Excuse me. So I shouldn't be allowed to vote? I actually work thank you but as I only do 15 hours a week I don't pay tax... NOT a lifestyle choice but its the only job I can get

Interesting that it seems that those who have actually worked with affected people think the OP has a point..

Its an intractable problem. How on earth do you turn it round when there are families generations of which have not worked, so this lifestyle is normal for their children.

Benefits cannot be withdrawn as the innocent would suffer and no decent people want that or a return to workhouses. On the other hand giving an unquestioning safety net infantilises weak/damaged/badly brought up people who never actually support themselves or their offspring.

Seeker it affects others as money spent on welfare payments would presumably otherwise go to schools/hospitals/care for the elderly and disabled etc. It was reported last week that the amount paid out in welfare payments now equals the amount paid in income tax. Scary.

kerala
I have worked with 'affected people'. I don't think the OP has a point. I think she is wrong and judgemental, and intolerant. I just forgot to put YABU at the beginning of my post.

yes but those welfare payments no doubt include benefits paid to "informal" carers who save the government £57billion a year

I don't think YABU at all

Even the OP accepts that carers and the disabled are somewhat different from those raised in a household where no one has a job, or has ever had a job, and their friends' parents don't have jobs, and it is normal to have your first baby at 15. These people do exist.

There aren't as many of them as the Daily Mail would have you believe, but they do exist and apart from the cost, what about the poverty of ambition? I wouldn't want to live like that. How much is income support a week - less than £100? It sounds like a hellish existence, and never mind the cost, no one should have so little hope they think it normal to live like that. That's the part that really makes me angry.

Oh FGS

Here we go again.

When I first separated from my XH I was working. I had 2 small children and have worked since I was 13 (paper round) and started paying tax at 15. I was never out of work. Circumstances, too boring and involved to go into here, forced me onto benefits.

Have you any idea how hard it is to live on £120.00 per week?
Yes, 90% of my mortgage repayments were paid YES, I didn't have to pay my council tax YES, my children were entitled to free school meals
YES, I didn't have to pay for my prescriptions.
YES, YES, YES.

I had to feed my children and myself. I had to pay for electricity and gas. I had to carve out some kind of existence for my family on £120.00 per week. Just sit back a moment and consider this.

I realise that I am not the "type" that the OP is railing against. Oh no, I'm far more fortunate. I am an intelligent woman, and I have returned to work and consider that the taxes I paid prior to my benefit claim, and those taxes that I now pay will all even out in the end. The welfare state prevented me from falling into a very black, very very scary place and I, for one, will be forever grateful. I'm rambling now. I suppose what I'm trying to say is that, yes, the welfare state is supposed to be a safety net. The net is there to catch some of us before we plunge too far, but it is also there to help those LESS FORTUNATE than ourselves. Less educated, less able to pursue a career, less able to even hold down a job.

Ugh, poor bashing is sooo 19th Century.

But some people I know of have huge TV's, smoke, drink, and go on holidays, yet haven't done a days work. They pay next to no rent, council tax etc. I think child benefit should stop after the third child (prepared to get REALLY hammered for that one).
Dh works full time, I work part time, we struggle for the basics sometimes, let alone the luxuries. We are both from families that gave us a strong work ethic.
I do not deny that there are genuine cases, but a relative of mine has just left work to go on disability benefit, yet she is teaching dance (!!!!!!) cash in hand. She will qualify for housing benefit etc. Makes me angry.

I can sort of see both sides of the argument, and your never going to get a one size fits all solution, as peoples circumstances are different. But in my line of work, i do see a lot of people, mainly younger, that have this lifestyle you describe. No plans or aspirations for the future. Lots of time on their hands spent arguing, shagging, being antisocial, having children etc.

It sounds like im referencing some sort of cliche, but its what we see day in day out. I agree, its not what the benefits system was set up for, but some of these people have not grabbed the opportunity to change the cycle when they were younger, probably not realised why they should, and then fallen in with the situation 'they know' and are used to. The government do offer schemes in order for mothers to train and have free childcare, and training schemes for men while they still have their benefits, and sometimes this does work. I think the whole issue is very complex and more work needs to be put into unravelling it.

Sorry, are those last 2 comments in response to me?

Christ, it's a shame it wasn't the Guardian that decided to have a Mumsnet column.

The Daily Mail blow-ins are getting distinctly tiresome.

"People who do not pay tax should not be entitled to vote, since why should these people who do not contribute a penny to the system, and possibly may never contribute a penny to the system, be able to have a say as to how the money the country generates is spent????"

Why on earth do you think the only definition of someone's usefulness to society is monetary?

What about people who have to care for sick/disabled/elderly relatives or - heaven forfend! - choose to stay at home with small children? Or are disabled or suffer from mental illnesses and can't easily function within the capitalist model we insist on promoting?

Good grief.

So you think the OP has a point? In detail could you describe five families that you know made up of people who haven't worked for more than two generations and claimed benefits? I'd like to know what type of benefits were claimed and the geographical location of the family of claimants, how many individuals made up this family etc. It's pretty obvious to me that a lot of people who tell me things like this know very few people who are on jobseekers or incapacity or claiming any other benefit. I mean the OP knows 3 individuals, not swathes of people from one family who have been out of work for generations. If you know these mythical people then describe them to me. I can't be the only person who's sick of generalisations about generations of benefit cheats.

Also I don't want to bring back Thatcher and I don't have a problem with Polish immigrants.

Nickschick- yes, sorry if I came over a bit judgey. I know there are lots of people who do a great job introducing young women to varied life opportunities.

Kerala, I have also worked with the groups the OP is referring to, although I don't anymore. I do not think the OP has a point.

Whoisasking - yours is exactly the type of situation the welfare state is set up to help - rightly so.
I do agree it's a hellish life for those genuinely caught in the benefit trap, but there needs to be more emphasis in educating young people that they should make a contribution to society. If they really can't work (and I'm not talking about those with young children) they should do something within their community to enrich it.

I would be very willing to provide with such information, except that client confidentiality prevents me from doing so.

1 in 6 children in this country is growing up in a family where neither parent has a job and has never had a job. Some are no doubt disabled or carers, even half perhaps, but they aren't all. Not by a long chalk.

I don't regard such people as "cheats" and I don't have issues with Polish people either. Not sure what they have to do with it, tbh.

IdontMN2 - I agree, having seen it first hand at work.

twirly - the only way to get the big TV's or overseas holidays on benefits are

a) have been given them
b) be committing fraud by working for cash in hand
c) saving very hard for a very long time
d) getting on extremely expensive credit

whoisasking - how did you have 90% of your mortgage payments paid?? We've currently got the interest being paid (set at a rate which is lower than the interest on the mortgage - so not even covering that) which is only just over 1/2 the monthly payments

Always - I know, most of it seems to be b) and d) in my experience. Then there are ways of getting into huge amounts of debt and not having to pay any of it back (you must have seen the commercials).

Am I turning into my dad????!!!!

YABVVVVVFU

It sucks to live on benefits with a family. It's not a "lifestyle choice" FFS.

This hostility towards people on benefits is fostered by the government and tabloids is all part of a cynical plot to keep the poorest (and yes, I mean you middle income Daily Mail readers) squabbling amongst themselves for the scraps whilst the super-rich plutocrats and political classes run off with all our money. Or did you all just miss the recent raping of public funds to line the pockets of the richest? The scandals about MP's expenses exploitation which will not stop, only change to a different form, because idiots like the OP would rather piss on the poorest and most vulnerable that make MP's and the City accountable for their crimes.

The benefits system is pocket change compared to the bailouts we just paid these irresponsible arsewipes in the City and Westminster, I repeat, fucking pocket change.