To think that this article could have done without the breastfeeding comment??

[mosschops30]

here

I am hoping to go to the new unit here, there are always issues surrounding this at the hospital, a good friend was asked by a MW there why she had 'poisoned' her baby when she said she had given formula at the end of her tether. Other people have seen women bullied into breastfeeding without any real support.
I had a bad post-birth experience, but was lucky enough to have a fabulously laid back healthcare assistant, I wouldnt have even managed the two weeks breastfeeding without her.

Am I being a bit touchy, or could this article have done without the 'she's breastfeeding and thats what we encourage' comment? Just to me it sounds a bit like, this mum is wonderful and if you dont manage it we wont be pleased

Tether, if you feel comfortable with the choice you made, great. That's what Poo is saying in essence.

Doll, you had a shit time and received substandard care but that does not invalidate what Poo says.

Kramer was hopping mad about his views being mis-represented in the Times article. He harangued a journalist friend of mine (who had nothing to do with it) for ages.

Thing that worries me about the NHS is the attitude at the top that seems to be 'stick a few posters up, TELL women to b/f, but don't actually employ b/f counsellors or educate midwives, HVs or GPs'. Most health professionals know sod-all about b/f, many peddle myths that undermine women who want to b/f, trusts ? at best ? rely on volunteers to do a job that should be a pretty darn fundamental part of the NHS itself.

Hope this new unit is different.

FWIW, my sister had a terrible experience from evil midwives who managed to bully her over breastfeeding while actually doing everthing they could to make it impossible. Appalling. They had her rushed off her feet, pumping every hour, on the hour as part of a strict regime (every hour pump/change nappy/do something else I forget - basically best part of an hour to do everything she was told) to the point where she had swollen ankles for the first week of her daughter's life.

They badgered her so much she didn't have a chance to just cuddle up with baby skin-to-skin. Hardly surprising that she was formula feeding by the time she was 'allowed' to leave a week later.

Unless things have changed very much, I'd recommend avoiding Chesterfield Royal if you want to breastfeed, or just be treated like a human being worthy of respect who needs to recover from childbirth. (My sister wasn't the only person being mistreated on the post-natal ward.)

Can I just add - 'women need to take responsibility for their choices and not blame bullying midwives' - yes. However - just having given birth you are probably more tired, shell-shocked and emotionally vulnerable than you have ever been in your whole life. Not necessarily the easiest time to assert oneself!!

"i think there should be less focusing on bf above all else as the only good thing you can do for your newborn"

Do you really think that bf is presented as the only good thing you can do for a newborn? I don't think so at all! It's just one of a range of things you can do to help your baby be healthy and thrive, along with meeting their emotional needs, and other things such as safe sleeping/protecting them from cigarette smoke. Only a fraction of the health information that women are given about newborns is specifically about feeding. Most of it isn't.

"In my experience, I made a choice to ff; I felt the benefits of my baby having a mother that was not suicidal outweighed the benefits of bfing."

I agree that it is most important to a baby to have a mum who is mentally well.

That said, you do have to ask yourself why, when a mum presents for an antenatal appointment saying that the thought of engaging in a normal biological function (because lactation is just as normal a part of being human as eating, having sex and going to the toilet)triggers feelings of extreme distress, she isn't at least offered expert counselling, just as she (hopefully) would be if she said she was unable to participate in sex or eat normally.

Breastfeeding is central to the normal experience of maternity and to infancy and as such I think we should take it seriously when someone has severe emotional problems with it.

(btw - I do appreciate that most people don't see an aversion to bf as being in any way pathological and therefore would have no interest in untangling the feelings behind it).

I'm really interested reading this thread. It seems that nobody has mentioned the few of us (terrible and heartless!) mums who simply choose not to breastfeed. My reasons were that: A:I'm only 21 and was worried about ruining the shape of my breasts for life- vain I know but at least I'm honest B: I'd had a horrible pregnancy and been in and out of hospital with hyperemesis and just wanted to 'recover' after the birth- I know how tiring and sore breastfeeding can be,and C:I wanted my husband to share the load with me 50/50! However, whenever I saw the posters in the hospital advocating that 'Breast is Best' or read articles about breastfeeding I felt incredibly uncomfortable. Also, the breastfeeding woman in the bed opposite me was talking to the midwife as she was helping me bath my baby and the midwife made a remark saying "good, thats the best way" I felt like she was being snide at me! Now I know I was probably just being paranoid because of my own feelings of guilt, so I guess what I'm saying is that I can see how some ff mum's feel about the pressure to bf being everywhere, but I think we tend to be seeing something that isn't really therean d is just a result of us feeling slightly guilty ourselves (even though we shouldn't-after all, formula feeding is perfectly safe and adaquete!)

Yummy - it's perfectly logical to choose to to ff for the reasons you mention in a society where - for all the cant about 'breast is best' - ff is the socially normal way to feed a baby. Shame though that you didn't know enough about bf to realise that it doesn't actually ruin your breasts, and that if you do it right it really shouldn't be unbearably sore. Also that bf isn't always tiring - I personally find it hugely less tiring than bottlefeeding, and that it makes looking after a baby much easier and less stressful.

In other words, you weren't able to make a fully informed choice because you didn't have wide enough knowledge of the reality of normal breastfeeding as part of your lived experience as a young woman. And I suspect that's true for most people. It was for me. I really knew sod all about bf when I was pregnant for the first time. I only found out what it was really like by doing it!

You really can't weigh up the pros and cons of bf and ff when you start with an assumption that bf is almost always dysfunctional, and when you take the first few weeks of bf as being representative of the whole experience. Unfortunately that's what most people do - because they don't have any knowledge of normal bf and most of their friends and family who bf give up very quickly. It makes about as much sense as comparing normal bf to ff, when the ff mum is unable to feed her baby safely because she's no instructions on how to make up a feed and when her baby's got an allergy to cow's milk! I mean - all these things happen, but it's not part of the normal experience of bottlefeeding, just like sore nipples and debilitating exhaustion aren't (or shouldn't be!) part of the normal experience of bf.

And Tethers, you hae proven my point exactly, I state a few facts that you don't like, and I am supposedly a bully. If I'm a bully, then you are a self made victim. If you are happy in that role, good for you, I wouldn't be.

Yummy, thank you. Thats what I'm talking about, you made your own choice for your own reasons, thats what life is about. I really am sorry if you felt bad, I would prefer if everyone felt comfortable with their own decisions, but you realise that you were projecting your own feelings onto the words of others and so on.

dollshouse, thats not what I said, you really are projecting. Are you honestly telling me that all of the women who (using your words, not mine) fail to BF are physically incapable of it, they hace some defect or inherent inability to do it? How on earth would that be possible? If in some Scandinaian countries, for example, 99% of women are capable of it, are we crippled somehow? That just isn't possible. You need to look elsewhere to find someone to blame. Luckily you can just blame me and the other nasty nasty people who get slated for stating a simple truth that we all know but most prefer not to acknowledge because it makes people feel bad or guilty.

In what other argument are you banned from using logical argument and obvious facts because you might upset women? And how is that not unbelivably insulting to us all?

Poo, rest assured, I am leading a full and happy life free of victimisation; although I appreciate your concern for my emotional welfare

I merely stated that your post illustrated the bullying nature of some pro-bfers very well. I did not call you a bully, but if you read that into it, then maybe you are capable of projection too.

I am gracefully bowing out of this thread now- I don't think I am furthering the discussion in any useful way, but have enjoyed the debate immensely; good points made on all sides... good luck finding consensus (!)

NB sabire- 'only' referred to the 'only way of feeding'; should have made that clearer, apologies... I also made decision post-natally, had no 'aversion' to bf whilst pg; and I was offered specialist counselling, which I took. My choice was the same.

Come off it, tethersend, your words clearly do accuse Poo of being a bully. Don't start calling people names and then deny that you've done it.

"is just a result of us feeling slightly guilty ourselves (even though we shouldn't-after all, formula feeding is perfectly safe and adaquete!)"

It's interesting that guilt is the predominant emotion for so many women who choose not to breastfeed. You do need to ask yourself why so many people feel guilty if the guilt is unjustified. I don't think it's about feeling bad for not giving your child 'the best'. How many people do you know who feel guilty because they don't dress their child in cashmere, feed them a organic diet and send them to private schools or top state schools? I know I don't. The things I feel guilty about in relation to my own children are things that I've done as a parent that have harmed them. I feel guilty that they eat too many sweets and don't exercise enough. And I feel guilty that ds spends too much time playing on the wii. But I think of guilt as a good thing in relation to these 'failings' because it motivates me to make changes in the way we do things at home.

edam- it was a tongue-in-cheek dig at the 'projection' poo accused yummyorslummy of. If there were a sarcastic emoticon, I would have used it.
Of course I called poo a bully.

Well strong, mouthy, women are often called bulies, or strident, or harridans etc. Doesn't bother me, I've got a brain and a big mouth and am not afraid of using them. I've never bullied anyone in my life, but some people do insist on playing the helpless victim so obviously need to cast someone as the nasty bully, however misguided they may be. If it makes them feel better about themselves I'll oblige.

This is actually turning a bit crazy. Good luck with the discussion, and being strong mouthy women or whatever, I'll obviously scuttle off and be a helpless victim because I accused someone of using bullying tactics. Shame on me. That's me told.

I have found the first few weeks of establishing breastfeeding hellish. With my first child he was too weak to suckle and I had to express milk for the few days of life. With my second child I had breast thrush for the first 9 weeks. I managed to breastfeed my first child until 2 years old and I am still feeding my daughter at 17 weeks.

This has only been possible because of the wonderful support I have had from friends and family. I am blessed to have a mother who is a retired midwife who has helped me over come problems as well as reasonable post natal care, La Leche and my husband.

The nhs posters do not admit that these problems can happen. There are glossy pictures of breastfeeding babies to promote breastfeeding.

I think that pooexplosions is unbeliviably smug. If she has another baby she could have a massive shock. Very few women are lucky enough to find breastfeeding completely painless and easy.

The chances of a first time mum finding the intial days of breastfeeding totally painfree are about the same as having a painfree natural childbirth. What is needed is better education and support.

I used to think that women who chose not to BF were mad.
From my lofty vantage it didn't occur to me that some women might struggle or even find it impossible.
My sister has split nipples and was devasted when she couldn't BF.
I BF my eldest son but the others are adopted... I can't count the number of times women have commented on me bottle feeding them.
The same thing happened to my SIL just the other day with her adopted dd.
It hurts to be judged and why should anyone have to explain?

I don't know what you are on about Poo, I didn't say anything of the sort.

I just think this whole debate is illustrating the point I made about directing blame in the correct direction (poor NHS funding leading to poor antenatal and postnatal care) instead of women arguing against each other.
A few posters have ignored the issue of needing adequete support all together. I do not understand the demands for FF mums to admit they didn't BF 'just because they didn't want to.' I imagine if you have maanged to BF without support you would not understand how hard it can be to feel frustrated, guilty and sad because you were unable to BF because you weren't helped when you were at your msot vulnerable.
The main reason why women do not BF past a few weeks is because they can't. They may be physically able to, as I was, but if your milk supply is poor, your baby has been poorly latched on (leading to great pain and discomfort) and your baby falls asleep constantly on the breast, it feelsuttely impossile. If you are not supported through this, then no, you can't. It's not about making a choice then hiding behind excuses because you're guilty. The reasons women give are genuine. It's very hard to feel happy with the 'choice' you made when you felt at the time you ah no choice whatsover.
And been told otherwise weeks/months/years later is not helpful.

I agree with you ElieRM.

"If you can't or don't want to, just bloody say so and stop complaining about people who are doing their jobs properly and promoting the known best practice. Of course they hae targets, thats not a bad thing."

I think the whole point is that a lot of the trained professionals who are promoting the known best practice, are Not doing their jobs properly ie providing support to people who want to, but are struggling to b'feed, but it doesn't matter too much if they can tick the boxes, that show that you are b'feeding when you leave hospital.

Hazey, there are alot of people in many many jobs who provide guidance on things they know nothing about. We have many examples popping up on MN all the time, in particular from MWs, GPs, HVs, SWs and SALTs.

Good point you make here Sabire

'It's interesting that guilt is the predominant emotion for so many women who choose not to breastfeed. You do need to ask yourself why so many people feel guilty if the guilt is unjustified'

That's what I don't get. So many posters come on, saying they have no need to feel guilty, they do the best they can in circumstances and so on and so on, and then turn around and accuse 'breastfeeding gestapo' of making them feel guilty.

Eh?
But didn't you just say you have no reason to feel guilty?

I don't feel guilty about choices I make, irrespective of whether or not they run contrary to popular opinion. For example, I don't believe in birthday presents at kids' parties and specifically ask people not to bring them. Undoubtedly people think I am mad/mean/nuts, but it doesn't concern me in the slightest. I as a mother have made the decision I think benefits my children best and that is all there is to it.

Oh, and Poo is coming out with some terrific points.

You shouldn't jump to conclusions reallytired, you assume I only have one baby and found BF a walk in the park. I am on my third, and my first was ill and underweight and I was told to FF repeatedly when he was born, and it was a huge struggle to BF successfully. I was however able to insist on what I wanted and knew to be best, despite a lack of support and any help. Becuase thats what I thought adults do, research and learn and then do what they hae decided and try hard. Is it easy? Often not. But then neither are a great many thingsin life. Nowhere did I say that its simple, but almost all women are physically capable of breatfeeding, thats not debateable, its a fact. It may carry implications you don't appreciate, but you can't change the facts to suit yourself.
My second was a dream to feed, completely different.
Is bf support adequate? No. Is there enough proper help available? No. But there isn't going to be any improvement while people complain about the BF "lobby" and the bullies pushing it and all the rest. Do you not see how you are causing the very problems you complain about? "I didn't get any help so I didn't BF, so take down those posters they might upset people who can't and give classes on FF"...is just making the problem worse. You want better support and info, but you don't want anyone to push BF. You want it to be easier but we're not allowed to talk about it. Its bizarre. The entire debate is supposed to be balanced on the feelings of women. How about we base it on facts and real information and proper targets and training instead? But that makes me a crazy lactivist bully doesn't it?

Wonderful!

I'll say it again - I'm with Poo.
She is saying everything I would want to say, only far more succinctly than I would.
Personally I don't see any bullying, just a clear, calm argument being put forth.

Am sure the thread has moved on, but I want to thank Dryad for Godwin's Law. I heart Mr. Godwin too, whoever he may be.