To think that this article could have done without the breastfeeding comment??

[mosschops30]

here

I am hoping to go to the new unit here, there are always issues surrounding this at the hospital, a good friend was asked by a MW there why she had 'poisoned' her baby when she said she had given formula at the end of her tether. Other people have seen women bullied into breastfeeding without any real support.
I had a bad post-birth experience, but was lucky enough to have a fabulously laid back healthcare assistant, I wouldnt have even managed the two weeks breastfeeding without her.

Am I being a bit touchy, or could this article have done without the 'she's breastfeeding and thats what we encourage' comment? Just to me it sounds a bit like, this mum is wonderful and if you dont manage it we wont be pleased

That is absolute rubbish. Perhaps for you ff would be second best. For me, stopping bf helped my PND and increased the bond between me and my dd. Bf is also doing the job of keeping baby alive, just in a different way. What you feel about it 'emotionally' is up to you. I would NEVER send my child to private school; I believe paying for education is immoral, and can give youngsters a twisted view of the world. I am a teacher in an inner London comprehensive, so I do know what state school has to offer. These are my views. I do not feel sorry for you because you cannot afford to send your ds to private school. I think it is a poor analogy. And I do not feel bad about ff my child; or indeed, that I have missed out on an emotional experience- in fact, just the opposite. The crucial thing here is that we are actually different people, with different views and experiences; neither of us has the right to pity the other for the choices we make.

"Bottlefeeding does the job of keeping a baby alive. However it lacks emotional side of breastfeeding."

I disagree, Dr Sears suggests that all mothers should be encouraged to feed with love. i.e. Hold their babies close and give them plenty of skin to skin contact whilst nursing, usually from the same carer and this can be done with bottles as well as breastfeeding.

I think it is easier for breastfeefing mums as it is impossible to breastfeed without holding a baby skin to skin but bottle fed babies can get the same emotional connection.

tethersend - which research are you referring to?

There are many studies - some are very good quality, some less so. Generally the research which underpins NHS and WHO recommendations on infant feeding are peer reviewed and come from impeccable sources.

As babieseverywhere has also pointed out, research into infant feeding does generally control for social factors. You would know this had you done even the most superficial survey of the evidence.

There is no real controversy over this issue among reputable bodies.

sabire- see my previous post for an overview, there is a link to an article in the Times; not the only one I have read, but an interesting talking point to start from. I think it would be foolhardy to accept the research as fact- but then I think all research should be questioned before it is touted as fact. As little as a generation ago, women were being encouraged by medical professionals to stop bfing and use formula, as it was better for babies (ie made them put on more weight); this standpoint was also based on research. Luckily, somebody later down the line questioned it. I am not a medical professional, and this is not even a topic dear to my heart; but I do know how I was made to feel, and my reading stemmed from there. I am obviously biased...

babieseverywhere- my post ended up below yours, I was in no way referring to you as talking 'rubbish', sorry, it looks like I was! I think basically we agree on the issue of attitudes, even though we have made different choices for our babies. I still doubt the validity of the research, as I do not believe that the research takes account of exactly the confounding factors you describe, but-hey- that's the point of a debate! I second Dr. Sears' assertion...

tethersend,

No problem

I assumed your comments were for ReallyTired, as you mentioned private schooling.

Truely decent research takes into account the issues you have raised. Some of the results are weak like the allergy protection of breastfeeding, but the results are proven.

As for the Times article you linked too, here is a link to the Mumsnet discussion of that article It makes interesting reading (if you have an hour or two free)

Also here is a follow up mumsnet thread about the follow up newspaper article.

Turns out the orginal article (the one you linked too) had serious badly misquoted the expert Michael Kramer.

Happy reading

"sabire- see my previous post for an overview, there is a link to an article in the Times; not the only one I have read, but an interesting talking point to start from".

"I think it would be foolhardy to accept th"e research as fact- but then I think all research should be questioned before it is touted as fact."

Of course it should. But you also have to remember that the bottom line with this issue is that it's about the health and welfare of babies. Would you be so tolerant of a journalist rubbishing research into SIDS and arguing that women can happily ignore the recommendations made by the NHS and the WHO in relation to safe sleeping? The article you link to has been seized by many people as an authoritative response to the 'breast is best' argument, because it cites reputable dissenting voices - but it's really not all it presents itself to be. I haven't got time to pick apart the inconsistencies and gaps in this article, but there are many, many.

"As little as a generation ago, women were being encouraged by medical professionals to stop bfing and use formula, as it was better for babies (ie made them put on more weight) this standpoint was also based on research."

There were never official recommendations made by public bodies like the NHS or the RCM that women should abandon breastfeeding in favour of bottlefeeding, only a gradual accumulation of non evidence based bad practice and poor advice.

"and my reading stemmed from there. I am obviously biased..."

I think the biggest problem is that probably very little of what is written by on this subject is written by people who have no formal training or education in breastfeeding or a really good knowledge of the evidence - this is generally the case I feel. It really skews the debate.

Sorry
Should read: "very little of what is written on this subject is written by people with formal training or education in breastfeeding"

A lot of people certainly believe private education is better. Its why there are as many jelous mumsnetters on a private education thread as jelous bottlefeeders on a breastfeeding thread. If they did not care then they would not bother post.

My son has done really well at his SATs at his local state primary. I will never know how he would had done if he had gone to private school. Doing well at school depends more on the child's attitude that how much money you spend on education.

We also need to remember there is more to parenting than how you feed your baby. I have not be asked whether my son was breastfeed for a very long time. No one cares, he's seven years old.

With the physiological side of breastfeeding, when it goes well there are hormones which make the mother feel better. Hormones like prolactin and oxytocin do affect the mother's mood. These are the same hormones produced when you make love. When there are no problems breastfeeding can be enjoyable. The problem is getting over the inital problems.

There is an emotional side to how you feed your baby and certainly logic goes out the window.

Agree with PooExplosions, Babies everywhere, Sabire and others. Back to the OP - sorry, I think you are BU.
A few general points about the discussion imo -
infant feeding in general is such an emotive issue, and I think it's easy to forget that many ff mothers have a lot of regret about circumstances that led to them giving up bf, so I think we do have to be sensitive to this. However, by the same token, it is true that the majority of people in the uk ff, and citing a mythical "bf gestapo" isn't the way forward. Honestly.
We do need to support everyone, but if you have made an informed decision to ff, then own that decision. It was right for you - great. No-one else can make you feel bad. If you really wanted to bf and turned to ff because you were let down by the system and lack of support, direct that anger at the people who should have helped you.

I really can't see anything wrong with the breastfeeding comment. I think perhaps you are being too touchy which is understandable if you had a bad experience there.

When I had ds (elective c-section due to breech presentation) I had an horrendous time at the hospital and I felt that some of the midwives bullied me into giving ds formula. I was struggling with breastfeeding and I think it made their lives easier for him to have formula as I didn't require their assistance. I can remember wanting to stick pins in the eyes of the woman in the bed next to me, she had a natural birth and the midwives kept congratulating her and telling her that she was an "inspiration" . I was also annoyed because she had hogged the breastfeeding counsellor even though she was breastfeeding without any trouble. The bf counsellor had been sent up to see me and she hijacked her so she could show what a perfect mum she was whilst I was sobbing in the bed next to her and the bf counsellor didn't have time to come to see me in the end. . Sorry I have gone off on a tangent. I can see where you are coming from but I think you are wrong on this occasion.

FWIW, most of the people I've met who formula feed (including myself) have done so because they tried and failed to breastfeed. I'm not so sure rates are low because people don't want to do it.

I ended up FF DS because my milk took a week to come in - by day 4 he was screaming his head off. If someone had suggested I give him a a top up of formula, and do that after every breastfeed (which is, in hindsight and without baby-addled brain what I should have done) I might have still been breastfeeding now. It would have assisted the process for us and enabled me to get some sleep which surely would have helped me produce? As it was I exhausted myself trying and it just didn't happen for us. All the hospital said was 'perservere with the breast'. If I'd done that until my milk came in DS would have been readmitted with dehydration.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that while breastfeeding should obviously be encouraged, perhaps it shouldn't be quite such a stigma for hospitals to suggest using formula alongside breastmilk. After all, it's readily available and midwives are surely best placed to advise on how best to achieve a combination that ensures a full baby and a mother whose milk odoesn't dry up. As it is I think pressure to breastfeed exclusively has led to mothers seeing the step to using formula as a one way street. Perhaps BF rates would be higher if more people were advised on how to use formula as a back up - surely 6 moonths of combined feeding would be better than a week of BF followed by exclusive FF?

Just my VHO.

"I ended up FF DS because my milk took a week to come in - by day 4 he was screaming his head off"

This is very common. Your milk does not come in instantly. It does feel like your baby is getting nothing when infact the colustrum is very rich. The constant screaming baby is normal and the baby needs to be constantly put the breast to stimulate the breasts to bring the milk in.

Prehaps a lot of mothers just aren't prepared for the fact that breastfeeding is hell to start off with. There is a lot of propaganda with little practical advice on how actually to breastfeed. There needs to be high quality education on how to breastfeed, ie. positioning and how to avoid problems. Maybe lansinoh should be free on the NHS.

Top ups are actually quite risky. I think that if a mother is going to use top ups she needs to be advised on how best to give them and given access to a breast pump. I also think that all mothers should be shown how to hand express and how to get a newborn to cup feed instead of using a bottle.

A problem with bottles is that they can cause nipple confusion. If the newborn sucks on the mother's breast instead of milking it then it will hurt the mother.

Tethersend, the word 'Fuehrer' has all but disappeared from the German language, except in certain compound nouns such as 'Reisefuehrer', precisely because of its connotations. Nowadays, the word 'Leiter' tends to be used instead. I do think it's an offensive to use this term in this context - it wouldn't have any meaning as used here if it weren't for the Nazi link, and it's offensive to all survivors of Genocide and their families, as well as to modern day Germans - most of whom are as far removed from Nazis as it's possible to be and yet still have to put up with comments like this.
Sorry - just got to shove my oar in here as I really don't think this is defensible.

Reallytired - I see your points about nipple confusion etc. and that's why I think there should be much, much more advise on successful ways of combined feeding. Formula is ATM seen as a safe alternative - perhaps if it was promoted more as a support to breastfeeding, and seen as a back up rather than a replacement it would become more the norm for mothers to give it alongside their breastmilk. Like I said before, several months of combined feeding has got to be better than a few days of breast followed by FF only.

It should perhaps be used in the same way that people use vitamin supplements - to supplement!

My baby was constantly on the breast from the moment he was born - he latched perfectly so I didn't need support in that sense - we were doing everything right. He developed jaundice, his birth weight dropped dramatically (more than the usual amount) and once I'd made the decision to give him formula I got the feeling from the midwives visiting me that they'd breathed a collective sigh of relief - they were quite worried about him and he would have been readmitted to hospital and probably been given formula by the staff - I made the decision that I'd rather be the one to make that decision for him. I appreciate that we might be an unusual case but the point I'm making is that combined feeding could have worked for us, but there wasn't a word of advice about it at the time.

Tethersend is talking complete and utter rubbish, and knows it. Its doesn't matter whether you formula feed, whether you made that choice or had it made for you, everyone in the known universe knows, or should know, that breastmilk is superior to formula milk. There aren't many facts in the world that are absolute, but that is one of them, end of.

Own your own choices, people. Stop hiding behind "bullies" and "pushy midwives". I chose to BF, it was difficult and I had no help and was told to FF. But I didn't change my mind, I did what I wanted as I am a grown woman who can think for myself and speak for myself. If you are unable to say what you want to someone who is there to help you, you have bigger problems than feeding your baby. If you choose to FF, own that choice and stop whining about it. You aren't made to feel anything, you feel how you do on your own.
Blaming the minority for the majority "feeling bad" about their own choices and actions is really rather pathetic.

"Perhaps a lot of mothers just aren't prepared for the fact that breastfeeding is hell to start off with."

Is hell?? Reallytired, this is rubbish!

Can be hell, surely. Can also be easy from the word go.

If formula feeding was proved to be better for babies than breastfeeding, I'd reluctantly bottlefeed. But really the fact that breast is better is only a nice bonus. I breastfed because it's free and easy! I'm too lazy to bottle feed! It seems sad to me that some mothers don't even try to breastfeed because they've got the idea it's going to be difficult and painful. How will they know unless they try?

"perhaps if it [formula] was promoted more as a support to breastfeeding, and seen as a back up rather than a replacement it would become more the norm for mothers to give it alongside their breastmilk."

Well - if using formula didn't generally damage breastfeeding, and wasn't implicated in health risks for babies this might be justifiable! The majority of women who stop bf after the first two weeks cite 'insufficient milk' as their reason for stopping - I suspect the majority of these women are supplementing with formula and this is the reason why they are having problems with their supply.

In any case the VAST majority of women who breastfeed for more than a few weeks also use formula anyway. What's needed is more and better help for women to exclusively breastfeed, as this is what many women want, and what the majority could achieve if they were properly supported.

What Poo said.

YABU.

If only it were that simple Poo.

Sabire, all fair points.

The thing is that most babies are formula fed for various reasons. Sad, but true. I'm not saying that babies should be combination fed instead of exclusively breastfed, or that midwives should encourage the use of of formula where it clearly isn't needed, what I'm saying (and I know I'm not putting it very well), is that if some of the percentage of babies who are FF exclusively were combination fed instead, that would surely be a step in the right direction?

Poo - I think you're on the money about women needing to admit to decisions they have made. I'm happy to admit that although I didn't want to FF DS, once I started it felt a whole lot easier, and it was def a decision I made myself.

poo - it really isn't that simple.

We're in a bloody mess about this subject.

We hold 'free choice' above everything else when it comes to this issue - which is culturally very much in keeping with the way we approach every other area of life in this day and age.

But then women are exposed to the drip drip drip of information about the short and long term health implications for babies who aren't breastfed and it puts their heads in a spin.

We just can't get the balance right - is this primarily a lifestyle issue for women, or a health issue for babies? And if it's both, how can we be even handed about it? And should we be handed about something that can have such important consequences for children?

If this is an important health issue for babies then why is there a chorus of voices telling women that it's ok not to breastfeed for other than health or serious social/psychological reasons?

Anyway - I think it's a very tough thing to get your head around, especially when you throw in how sensitive and instinct driven women are when they come to their babies.

I think we have over complicated a fairly simple issue, and turned it into a big sensitive subject that it needn't be. We have mixed in lies, half truths, dubious research and personal choice issues until we have one big mess. Its not hard at all.
Breast is best. Because we are mammmals, its a defining characteristic of our species. Human babies are designed to be fed that way, and human mothers are designed to feed that way. If you believed everyhting you read you would think that millions of women in western europe try really hard but can't breastfeed. Thats simply not biologically possible. In most of the world, 99.9% of women can and do breastfeed, we are no different.

What is different is our choices, our expectations, our cultural norms and attitudes, our misplaced idea that "science" can create something equal to or better than breastmilk. And if we want to make choices such as FF that better suit our lifestyles or beliefs then thats great for us. But lets please get away from the insulting and patronising conceit that we are all incapable victims of conspiracies and pressure groups, and stop buying into the idea that we give up our rational minds when we give birth.

poo, you have illustrated the bullying attitude of some pro-breastfeeders better than I ever could. Thank you.

You are correct, in that I am not an expert on the issue, my view is skewed by my experiences- I am not afraid to admit that, and the article I referred to is subjective and has it's own agenda. Any research is there to be questioned. I'm simply suggesting that pro-breastfeeders do too.

sabire, I think you raise a very valid point about the balance between lifestyle issue for women and babies' health, even though our views may be different. If I were to concede for a second that ffing is vastly inferior to bfing- if I grit my teeth - the miriad of other factors that come into play surely redresses the balance in some cases? In my experience, I made a choice to ff; I felt the benefits of my baby having a mother that was not suicidal outweighed the benefits of bfing. I made this choice myself, not because I was not supported enough, or did not have enough information, but because I wanted my body back. I feel comfortable with my choice, and take full responsibility for it. I wish it were not questioned so much. I think a society that places the wellbeing of babies above all else sounds wonderful, but in practice can lead to situations such as that in Nicaragua currently. There should be a balance, and that should be ok- were we to find out that formula was on a par with cigarettes, this would be a different discussion. It is not poison. Babies' welfare is paramount, but when lifestyle choices also have a huge impact on this, i think there should be less focusing on bf above all else as the only good thing you can do for your newborn. A whole group of new mums are being labelled failures as parents before they've even begun. It's sad.

I am sorry Poo but you sound very much like the bullying midwife I encountered when I had ds.

Four hours after having ds by c-section, I rang the buzzer for her to help me get ds from his cot so I could bf him. I put ds to my breast and her exact words to me were "You obviously haven't got a clue what you are doing and you don't have a hope in hell of bfing if you intend doing it like that!" Following this I had 2 nights of what I consider bullying, I was hard work, bf wasn't coming naturally to me and I needed extra support, to her I was just a nusiance and when I agreed to give ds formula she was as nice as pie because she knew I wouldn't be bothering her anymore.

I don't put all of the blame on my failure to bf on the midwife, obviously there were others factors that contributed to it too. But your attitude stinks you are basically saying that because it is natural everyone will succeed if they perservere and that women who fail only have themselves to blame. I don't think this is the case at all.