To think that this article could have done without the breastfeeding comment??

[mosschops30]

here

I am hoping to go to the new unit here, there are always issues surrounding this at the hospital, a good friend was asked by a MW there why she had 'poisoned' her baby when she said she had given formula at the end of her tether. Other people have seen women bullied into breastfeeding without any real support.
I had a bad post-birth experience, but was lucky enough to have a fabulously laid back healthcare assistant, I wouldnt have even managed the two weeks breastfeeding without her.

Am I being a bit touchy, or could this article have done without the 'she's breastfeeding and thats what we encourage' comment? Just to me it sounds a bit like, this mum is wonderful and if you dont manage it we wont be pleased

che dopn't forget the recent one about EBF

I went away on holiday in the middle of that and was too upset to BF anywhere other than in the tent after.

What a shame lily. I hope you had a nice holiday anyway.

I have to say that I have BF all of my birthchildren and have never encountered any funny looks or comments (that I have noticed). Nor did I get any grief about FF my DS2 . I refuse to get involved in schizisms (sp) involving something as basic as feed a baby. It is an artificial divide that causes stress and guilt on both sides.

It HAS been assumed that I FF all of my children though. I assume that is because I am clearly chav working class and we dont bf.

PMSL

Well said Poo.

And as for this Mosschops
'I just felt in an article about a £16m NHS investment in my community that whether the woman was bf or not was irrelevant'.

Er no, it's not irrelevant at all and if you think it is it just goes to show that like most people you haven't a clue about what this all means for the nation as a whole.

I'll start you off if you like. Breastfeeding a bit more often would mean that the myriad of costly (yes ££££££) illnesses associated with bottle feeding might be reduced.

Furthermore, it might offset the cost of this unit.

Bloody hell, get a grip.

Well said Poo.

And as for this Mosschops
'I just felt in an article about a £16m NHS investment in my community that whether the woman was bf or not was irrelevant'.

Er no, it's not irrelevant at all and if you think it is it just goes to show that like most people you haven't a clue about what this all means for the nation as a whole.

I'll start you off if you like. Breastfeeding a bit more often would mean that the myriad of costly (yes ££££££) illnesses associated with bottle feeding might be reduced.

Furthermore, it might offset the cost of this unit.

Bloody hell, get a grip.

I suspect the midwife quoted in the original article merely wanted to convey to women considering giving birth at the unit that if they wished to breastfeed, they would be given support in learning to do so if needed. Or have I misinterpreted?

I understand why it's a touchy subject. I have FF-ing friends for whom the fact that their breastfeeding did not work out (one had a baby with a cleft palate who could not latch, one had both nipples bleeding to the degree that her son was hospitalised for ingesting so much blood) is a source of ongoing pain. Their midwives did nothing to reassure them that they had at least tried their hardest to make it work.

On the other hand, I received no breastfeeding support at all (DD was early and tiny, and was given formula as her first big feed without my permission). However we persevered: I will have been feeding her breastmilk for a year in September (most of it exclusively pumping as DD has severe reflux and needs meds added to each bottle of BM). So I guess I can see both sides of the argument. I often feel very condemned when i pull out a bottle (of BM!) in public. Yes, condemned by a minority - but it's a minority whose opinion I foolishly care about.

ooh not like moondog to disagree with me , I almost expect you on every thread of mine now!

Although many women do formula feed, this post, and others I've read on MN about feeding, show that most women start out wanting to feed and a common reason for them not is poor,contradictory or very little help from medical staff. So if a unit is saying publicly 'we will encourage breastfeeding' then just maybe they will be putting the time, effort and resources into really helping those new mums who want to BF get feeding established.

FWIW I FF my all my three children (dd then dd twins) and have never had negative comments from anyone, either the midwives in the midwife-led unit where i recovered after twins were born (and they are really hot on breatfeeding, have some of the highest success rates in the country) or from BF friends. More support and less criticism of all new mums would be a good thing i think

sorry that should read 'most women start out wanting to breastfeed'

oops

Hmm, don't flatter yourself Mosschops. I have no recollection of ever posting on any thread of yours.
I merely respond to stupid comments about breastfeeding as and when they occur.

Draw your own conclusion.

It's always going to be an emotive subject. I agree wholeheartedly that the main issue is lack of support, which can clearly be traced to a gross lack of NHS funding.
I really feel that instead ofarguing with ach other, or judging others (and especially from making comments about 'bf nazis') we should be asking:
Why, when there is a nationwide shortage of midwives, is it so difficult for newly qualified mws to get work? Obviously, if there are not enough midwives on the wards, they do not have the time to spend showing women how to bf. When my DD was born, there were so few midwives in employment that those working on the postnatal ward were working 18 hour sifts (six of those hours unpaid.) So the shocking lack of bf support in hospital is unsurprising.
Why are so many labour wards being shut down? Because all hospitals have empty bed targets, and birth rates fluctuate, postnatal wards may frequently have empty beds, thus meaning hospitals do not meet their targets. Therefore, wards are shut/ beds removed to enusre the hospital does not lose funding. So there are frequently too few beds on postnatal wards, meaning women are sent home before bf is anywhere near established.
Why are there so few health visitors to provide support when it is msot needed? Due to my Primary healthcare trust refusing to employ any more health visitors, the local baby clinic has gone from being run weekly to being run fortnightly. And the health visitors running it are under an enormous amount of strain as its now so busy. When I asked about relactation, the HV I was speaking to told me 'best just stick to the bottle now' because she had 5/6 women waiting to speak to her and 15 minutes to see them all.
I ahve recently written to my primary care trust to point out these issues. I shall also be writing to the minister for health as soon as I ahve fully finished researching the issues. If any one would like to share their thoughts and stories i'd be happy to hear them as it can only strengthen the case.
Obviously, it is far ore convienient for the ggovt if women get upset with each other, mws, hvs etc because it detracts from the funding issue, which i happen to believe is the root of the issue.
So I think we should all be nice :D

I didn't want to leave hospital (and I was in hospital for 11 days after the birth) without some sort of feeding pattern being established as I didn't want to be at home crying because my baby wouldn't feed.

Because I couldn't get the hang of breastfeeding and nor could my DD I opted to FF. Purely my decision, but not made lightly. But I did feel I needed the positive opinion of the staff in my final choice. It was forthcoming from a few, but only secretly which I thought was very sad. 'Oh, please don't tell anyone that I have agreed with your desicion to breast feed because it is the right decision for you'.

Why isn't the feeding of one's baby a choice thing. Why do so many people feel the need to judge and put their two pennth worth in if you arn't doing what they think is right. I am guilty of judging too when my cousin decided that she was NOT going to breastfeed and give her newborn a bottle without trying to BF. I shouldn't have judged as at the end of the day it is her choice and we all make our own choices. It's a shame that she didn't breastfeed, but her choice.

Oh dear - sorry for the multiple use of the word choice/choices there

charming as ever moondog!

Florence I agree it should be a choice, and women shoulsnt be made to feel bad whatever choice they made.
I do think however that with more support from MW's and other professionals then bf sucess rates would increase. Sadly at the moment in two of my local hospitals you are lucky to get a MW to yourself for delivery let alone one who has oodles of time to spend with you supporting your bf.

Anyway all that is aside from my OP, which I have already admitted I was being a bit touchy over.
Fingers crossed for breastfeeding no.3 for as long as poss

Sorry to wade in, but I am from the camp that WAS bullied about bf; I had a planned cs (breech baby), had no milk, and had to sign a form that pretty much stated that I was prepared to forsake the best start in life for my daughter in order for them to give her formula. I had lost a lot of blood, was pretty out of it and had a very hungry, tiny baby. I did not need this guilt trip from the mws. My issue is that the research that the 'breast is best' policy is based on is rarely called into question, and is regularly used by the NHS in it's literature etc. I was interested to read www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/article6719696.ece
I think it's an interesting debate, and reading some of the posts, attitudes from health professionals seem to vary widely across the country...
For what it's worth, I agree with the OP- it was unnecessary. YANBU. And I really don't think getting bogged down in the semantics of using the word 'fuhrer' furthers this debate in any useful way- the literal translation is 'leader', the word still exists in German, and besides, it was funny.

Mosschops you state this

'I do think however that with more support from MW's and other professionals then bf sucess rates would increase. Sadly at the moment in two of my local hospitals you are lucky to get a MW to yourself for delivery let alone one who has oodles of time to spend with you supporting your bf.'

This is exactly what the MW whose quote you have issue with is doing. She is supporting the mother to breastfeed.

You can't have it both ways. You seem to want a world in which breastfeeding support exists but noone is allowed to say how great it is for fear of offending someone for whom it didn't quite work out.

Sorry haven't read the whole thread, only read a few comments but will get back to the rest.

But I had to laugh about the so-called 'breastfeeding lobby'. What is this lobby ffs & where is it hiding?! MN is supposed to be (as say many formula-feeding MNetters) this ultra-bf-supporting community... and yet here on MN too I've heard of this mysterious BF lobby countless times. Sounds to me something like the mafia, or the gun-lobby or whatever. The truth is, nobody can really bullly anyone else into bf-ing. How can they do this ffs??? Formula feeding is perfectly acceptable in society; much more so even today than bf-ing. On the other hand, lots and lots of women have been bullied into stopping bf-ing before they would have liked. One easy way that this is done is by giving them stares when they bf their toddler or their older baby (or even their younger baby) in public. Where is the all-powerful BF lobby when you need it, i.e. in those circumstances...

(And don't get me started on the 'bf fuhrers', the 'breastapos', the 'bf nazis'. PLEEEEEASE, spare me anymore holocaust analogies. It's really tiring to read- as these things get reiterated again & again- plus you know, it's highly offensive.

ignoring all the stuff between here and the OP, I will jsut say that you are being over sensitive about the article saying that she is breastfeeding.

Some of the mums I know from babygroups I go to don't know anyone who has breastfed, they have never really heard of it, they think only certain sections of the community do it.

Perhaps by someone who has preconcieved ideas about who can and can't breastfeed my be encouraged by readying that this lady has done it.

I am sorry that you haven't had a good time, but that doesn't mean that breastfeeding shouldn't ever be mentioned in public.

What a brilliant hospital!

Looks like they are putting a lot of resources into it and making it the maternity flagship for wales, or at least South Wales.

This means that the midwives' training will be up to date and a shining example of what's supposed to happen.

That a midwife suggested they encourage b/fing is a good thing. They encourage it, the same way one's GP encourages people to stop smoking, for example.

In any case, love the double beds, presume in a private room?

I'm sorry that bf did not work out for you.

However I see no reason why women who do manage to breastfeed should have to keep it secret because you are jelous.

Breastfeeding mothers have feelings as well.

Oh Christ... you cannot compare bf to giving up smoking!!! The research that 'proves' bf is far superior to ff is, at best, flawed. It is not the same thing at all. The health benefits bf babies in the studies experienced are quite possibly down to the life and parenting style of the mothers that took part in the research- however, the NHS chooses to ignore this fact in it's literature. Research this shaky would not be cited as proof of anything in, for example, a medical area. I am not saying that bf is bad for babies, that would be ridiculous. It's just that it is now being heralded as magical, and far superior to ff, and that is a dubious claim. I am not jealous of bf mums, nor do I feel superior to them; it's simply a personal choice. I do think the culture of making women feel that they have 'failed' in bfing is incredibly unhelpful- the above posters are perpetuating this.
I just think we should be doing more research before we claim suppostiton as fact.

Reallytired - accusing the OP of being 'jealous' is a bit harsh.

When you want to bf and can't it's not a case of being jealous of those who can - it's a case of feeling bad enough about it already and not needing your nose rubbed it it.

I'm not saying that is what the article (or bf mums in general) is doing at all - I agree that it is relevant, but it's very difficult not to be (over) sensitive when you have had a bad experience around something which is a very emotional issue for most women.

TBH - the media probably does little to help - and I speak as a qualified journalist.

ElieRM makes a good point that we should be working together to change things instead of judging each other and the decision we have made/had to make.

FWIW I was in hospital for just over a week with DD. The day after I came out the community midwife visited me for precisely 5 minutes, announced 'It looks like you're getting on OK', took my notes and buggered off never to be seen or heard from again. I had a couple of friends round at the time with their new babies and frankly she looked like she couldn't get out of the house fast enough.

It's not just a lack of support in hospital that is the issue.

The person who wrote the article has no intention of rubbing anyone's nose it in.

Prehaps its better to compare breastfeeding to private education. In many ways I am jelous of people who can afford to send their children to private school. I would love my son to be a class of 12 and have all the extra curricular activites instead and not have to share a classroom with children who have behavioural problems. However I cannot afford it for two children. Or I would have to work exceptionally long hours and live on bread and water.

Bottlefeeding does the job of keeping a baby alive. However it lacks emotional side of breastfeeding.

tethersend,

Breastfeeding is the normal average way to feed babies and babies fed in this way have the best health outcomes.

Formula is nothing like breastmilk, it is a cow milk based food source which is the only commerical alternative to breastfeeding.

Research into breastfeeding takes into account confounding factors (like life and parenting choices of the mothers) so the research results are facts.

"I do think the culture of making women feel that they have 'failed' in bfing is incredibly unhelpful"
Totally agree, all mothers need support and using emotive words like fail is unhelpful and unsupportive.