For being Judgy McJudgersons about THIS:

[Scorpette]

Okay, before I start, I'd like to point out that I am NOT a troll and what I'm about to write really did happen - I didn't step into a parallel Jeremy Kyle Universe!

I was on the bus this morning and 3 teen girls got on, one of them heavily pregnant. The pregnant one sat next to me, her friends on the seat in front and they were chatting loudly and animatedly - the front half of the bus could hear every word. The pregnant one (who I'll call pg-girl) was continuing a conversation the the other two and was fuming about a Doctor's appointment and said: "So I said to him, how was I supposed to know you can get an STI when you're up the duff? You don't need to use condoms if you're pregnant do you, the stupid twat. And he said that you do if you wanted to prevent STIs and I was like, yeah whatever - why would you use condoms? You can't get pregnant! Anyway, he then told me it could cause problems for the baby and when it's born, yeah, so I said, well I'll just have one of those Sumerian* Sections then and he was all like, we don't just give them out willy-nilly and I was like, whatever, and he gave me these tablets and shit, yeah, and said if I was going to shag someone then I have to make the guy use condoms!'. 'Ew!', said one of her pals, 'that is well rank, innit?!'. 'Yeah' said pg-girl,' that ain't happening - well embarassing to ask some random to use a johnny when you just want a quick shag!'. 'Anyway', says the other girl, 'forget about that shit - we're on holidays now, innit'. She then got 3 bottles of WKD out of her bag and all 3 sat and drank them. I was and biting my tongue. Pg-girl then got a tin out of her bag and started rolling a roll-up fag, which she put behind her ear. An old man sat opposite leaned over and said 'You can't smoke on the bus, young lady'. She then yelled at him, 'AM I smoking on the bus, cunt? NO! I'm gunna smoke it when I get off, so fuck you!'. The old man said, 'Well you shouldn't be smoking at all in your condition, Miss' and pg-girl started shouting 'What's it to you? Why do you care about my baby? Are you a fucking Paedo? Paedo! PAEDO!' and all 3 girls started pointing at the old guy and yelling 'PAEDO!' at him. The bus driver pulled over and threw the girls off, amidst much swearing. As he did so, a middle-aged woman shouted 'He's not a paedophile for caring more about your unborn child than you do, you nasty little slut!'. Not exactly a nice thing to shout, but must confess I secretly agreed.

I swear I've not exaggerated any of this. Am I being snooty or judgemental at being utterly shocked and disgusted? I just can't believe people live their lives like that. Feel so sorry for that child before it's even born!

*Yes, she really said 'Sumerian Section'. Is it some sort of ancient middle eastern operation?

Yep, I can believe it happened. There are some nasty foul-mouthed madams round here too.

hecate good post.

I have witnessed this type of behaviour on a number of occasions. Even on the maternity ward and ante-natal clinic.

Now the boys are at school, I am being exposed to parents with lifestyles that makes me go.

It is very sad for the children and unless there is intervention, the cycle will continue.

Why is judging always such a bad thing? We're so bloody laissez-faire in this country; we daren't say anything for fear of offending god knows who, & people are so ready to blame outside forces - government/society/parents/etc - when sometimes it is just an individual's fault because they are stupid, or arrogant, or weak or just a crappy person. It's all very well saying "oh, my parents were rubbish" but does that mean it's then okay to make someone-else's (in this case the baby) life a misery?

And I'm not some Daily Mail-reading ranter, but a left-of-centre grumpy old woman (well, 44!) who is fed up with bracing myself to walk down the street...

And... so the cycle will continue.... the baby will be one of the teenagers on the bus in 15 years time....

I feel sorry for the girl who was pg (what kind of upbringing has she had), and the unborn baby. Utterly, utterly heartbreaking.

It is a shame isn't it? Maybe they need to change the way sex-ed is taught. Maybe she doesn't think about STI's because what they have covered at school or with parents, she's been taught that you get regnant and have babies in loving, stable relationships etc so the topic of multiple sexual partners during pregnancy may not arise iyswim?

Oh this is so sad,

When i was pg with ds2 I went for a scan, there was a young girl there with mum, dad, b'f his mum and dad and a little girl. The dad started talking to me about babies etc turns out he was with his daughter and the entire immediate family as they were overjoyed at the birth of their second grandchild....the first also belonging to this same girl who turned out to be 14 1.2 yrs old. she had had her first before she turned 12, apparently she had fallen pg on her brothers b'day when she was just over 11 yrs old ffs. Her b'f was the dirty 20 year old who was with them. But the good thing was (apparently) that she was going to bring this one up as it was a boy, but the parents were bringing up the other one as their own as it was a girl......

SO yes it does happen and it is so sad...

sorry for abrupt way I have written that but ds2 is climbing on me.

I was at school twenty years ago and even then, we were given information about STI's. Yes more can be done, but you would have had to live underground without outside contact to not know about STI's. Whether you choose to ignore that information is another thing.

I am inclined to agree with scampadoodle, that sometimes the individual just has to stand up and take responsibility and society needs to let people take some of the responsibilities themselves, instead of always looking to others for blame.

But in a way that proves my point that some people are just stupid - that was seemingly a close, loving family but they let their 11 yr old daughter sleep with a (then) 17 yr old????? FFS.

Oh I can well believe this.
I volunteer in my local school and some of the parents are hideous. They often arrive at pick up, smoking, swearing etc. There are often arguments amongst the teenaged Mums.
Tis so, so sad.

There are, I suppose people who have not experienced enough love, who then don't value themselves, get hurt, in turn don't value other people.

Then there are those who are given love but no boundaries or a sense of being part of society and having responsibilities.

Then there are those who don't get enough love and/or boundaries who somehow manage to make their lives different. That, to me is the interesting question. How is it that some people transcend the terrible things that have happened to them ?

Christ this is sad.

You can imagine what these teenage girls' mums are like. And you can also imagine what that unborn baby is going to be like in 15 years time.

I have seen behaviour like this quite a lot - and that is in small seaside towns (Ilfracombe) and supposedly 'posh' areas (Cheltenham). It's not just an inner city problem.

Heartbreaking, really.

I agree with scampadoodle: people should start judging more. It is unacceptable behaviour to put an innocent baby's life and health at risk, it is unacceptable to accuse someone of being a paedophile and bullying them ... by silence people are giving tacit acceptance to this sort of behaviour. It is WRONG. And, if her parents aren't willing to educate her, the community should take over.

I have often wondered the same thing screamingabdab.

screamingabdab I think it is because the nature/nuture thing is probably fairly close to 50/50.

I know it is very popular at the moment to consider all people equal, but some people are just better. They are smarter, more resourceful, more capable than others around them and these people are not just born into wealthy/caring families, they turn up everywhere.

A clever resourceful person will do well regardless of where they start, it is the not so clever (i.e. the rest of us) who are shaped by our surroundings.

So sad. Very well written though.

What I wonder is when this all started. Has there always been that element of society? I grew up in Ireland and was raised a Catholic and went to Catholic schools. We were brought up to respect our elders and ourselves. Obv there were always girls who got PG before marriage and the way it was dealt with was sometimes horrific. Now schools in Ireland are mostly still Catholic and run by religious orders but there are less and less nuns etc teaching and getting PG before marriage is common and there is a lot less stigma in some quarters and it is something to boast about in others.

Where did respect go? Why are there people coming out of the education system with these attitudes? Presumably they get these attitudes from parents. Where did their parents get these attitudes? There seems to be an almost feral level of society now. Was it always there?

Do you live in London? I hear similar conversations on the bus every day. It does sound like Catherine Tate et al, but that's why those guys are so brilliant, because they get that kind of chat so well. I swear I've virtually heard girls say 'Am I bovvered?' to one another.

V depressing though, but good for the driver for throwing them off - I've never seen that happen! Poor old guy too.

don't believe a word of it,.. you have thrown in every single possible cliche, ha ha ha...it's bullshit.

I do believe it, but one glimmer of hope. Once you get these young mothers away from their "friends" (which almost universally happens once the baby is born) the pack mentality does seem to evaporate.
I have taught many young girls over the years who were "appalling" antenatally but have become "good" mothers.
They are young, irresponsible and often the victims of shitty childhoods; luckily the pattern doesn't always continue. Surestart has been a real advance for some young women.

definitely yanbu.

that's awful.
i lvoe the middle-aged woman's reaction, though - I'd like to think that would be me in the same situation.

i can't believe those girls are that stupid.

It is so depressing, but more and more common. There are many people/organisations/programmes to blame for society failing so many people - for example I have a real problem with programmes like Eastenders and Jeremy Kyle who treat situations like this lightly and as entertainment which makes young kids think that it is normal.

Anyone my age (late 30s) will remember the big campaigns about AIDS in the 80s but there doesn't seem to be a very good campaign about STIs and condoms any more. Kids really do seem to see them as disgusting - there was a programme on Channel 4 not long ago about teenagers' attitudes to sex and it really shocked me.

I trained to be a teacher (but decided against going into it in the end) and when we touched on sex education I commented that I thought it was more important, or equally important, to talk to the kids (especially the girls) about respecting their body, respecting their mind, saying yes when they were ready, and just having a clear idea of what they wanted from sex before going 'behind the bike sheds' with some spotty greasy lad, but was told that was putting my morals on them and that wasn't my job as a teacher. I found that incredibly sad.

When you book in with a midwife the forms shock me. They are so PC and almost anti-marriage and family, plus they ask you about street drugs you're taking etc, alcohol, smoking etc. There must be a large proportion of people for whom issues like that are common place in order for them to feature so prominently on the forms.

I wish there was a license needed in order to have children, a minimum age maybe plus a test, then you can go ahead and have one, but I guess that is a bit right wing!!!

This is one of the many reasons we are applying to emigrate!

Sorry for the rant

oooh can we have a Government controlled fertility programme argument conversation? Can we? Can we? pleeeeease.

omg, i repeat, no justice in the world!

i believe it. all you have to do is open your eyes. i see it whenever i work as a special, but i dont think the age of the mum is what makes her a terrible mother, but her attitude does. i was a teenage mum at 19 but i was also married and had an old head on young shoulders - i loved being a mum and still do. its very sad for that unborn baby, its unlikely she will suddenly become a caring decent human being just because she happens to give birth.

Devongirl - there's also a space on AN notes asking whether you're related to the father of your child but it doesn't mean there's an incest epidemic.

Smoking, drinking and drug taking in pg need to be recorded as medical fact, especially if the mother is taking crack or heroin as the baby will be born addicted.

Devongirl we now teach sex and relationships education and it includes all of the above.
Also, I think they have crap mothers in other countries you know!!