to think private schools having charitable status is taking the piss

[zanz1bar]

Most private schools have their charitable status as an accident of history. Does a school like Eton really deserve the same financial status as the NSPCC.

Can it really be justified by a few subsidized places.

Message withdrawn

Apple - if its all so easy and effortless why don't you do a PCGE and become a teacher? i mean its not like they spend most evenings till gone midnight and most of the weekend, marking and planning lessons - thats what administrators are for, oh and just think of those lovely long holidays, with nothing to do because the administrators are doing it all for them. All teachers do is turn up just before 9 o'clock deliver lessons all day and go home, such an easy job.

Not got time to catch up with so many posts now, but Scienceteacher when you said "look at the backgrounds of those in our society in top jobs...
I think those from independent school backgrounds are over-represented.
This suggests that independent education is good for the nation"

That made me think of Torchwood. That was the argument there wasn't it. If you haven't watched it then ask someone who will explain what side that puts you on.

MIFLAW - I had to at this.

"Now please explain to me why taxpayers who do not, or indeed cannot, make those choices, should subsidise you to do so by giving you indirect tax breaks?"

You nor anybody else who pays tax in this country contributes a penny to the actual cost of my childrens' education. I pay for it all through fees. The only thing I do not pay is the extra 15% VAT (17.5% when it goes up again) on top that would go to the state if teh school did not have charitable status Fair enough, I do not pay that tax - but I do save the state far more by not sending my kids to a state school.

I DO NOT get money directly or indirectly from you or anyone else to educate my children. I pay twice.

MIFLAW - nowhere in our area. Really. As all school places are allocated now for September I have been told there are no places left. But I was told "your road is not in any catchment area anyway as everyone there goes private". So there you are!

It probably is a much much harder job in the state sector which is why we get so many applicants each year to jump ship and join us, unfortunately so many will have to stay there because they don't cut the mustard.
Which is a poor reflection on the recruitment process and PCGE.
So many teachers are all for raising taxes to lift the standards and yet the government has to offer £10k incentives to go and work where the expertise are most desperately needed, champagne socialism again and again.

YANBU

Come on jellybeans get stuck in, I have to go save my washing from the rain, dull, dull, dull.

Cripes!! Half of lesson planning is having a Plan B, or C in some cases. To do this you need an intimate knowledge of both your subject and your students, their individual needs and learning styles, not to mention an understanding of the classroom dynamic of each group and class. How administrators can do that without any training or experience of the students is beyond me.

But Hey, I'm just one of those state educated PGCE qualified teachers who couldn't cut it in the big wide world.

Interesting also the thought that state experienced teachers can't cut the mustard in private schools. The teachers I have worked with whose experience is only in private schools have generally need a map to find the route from their arse to their elbow.

Abraid, why is my agenda foolish - in particular what is wrong with the statement you quote? It's a very simple concept that without a huge state sector ('normal' kids) there would be no point to private education.

I'd be interested to ehar why you disagree with that.

Custy puts it very well as usual.

slug - why do you think this is?

"The teachers I have worked with whose experience is only in private schools have generally need a map to find the route from their arse to their elbow."

They are the ones the private sector rejected so the only job they can get is the state sector. Believe me, there are very few private school teachers who would willingly jump to the state sector without being desperate or highly incentivised. Not that there are not good teachers in the state sector but the flow is rarely private to state but there are a lot of state school teachers who would love to work in the private schools.

And it's use of language like that to make a point Slug that parents pay to keep their child away from

ABetaDad - that's your choice! But it's not just about money: (making a wild guess here...) you are probably, middle class, relatively well off, well educated, intelligent and resourceful, as are probably most of the parents at your private school. If you were a parent at a local state school you would actually be making more than a financial contribution to the school. Your input, your expectations, your concern with your children's education would all go some way to improving the local school.

But of course there are no very easy answers because middle class parents in the state sector aren't falling over themselves to send their kids to the worst schools serving large council estates!! I suppose we all want what's best for our children - I just think we all pay as a society if we don't factor in what's best for ALL children.
And I want my child to go to a GOOD state school, so I'm as guilty of that as the next person!

Haven't read ANY of this thread but will jump straight in:

has anyone pointed out that those who pay for private school pay three times?

1)taxes toward state education
2)for their own kids
3)to subsidise charitable places

Even though I pay for private schools, there is a big part of me that wished that they would just abolish the lot and force us all back into the state sector. I bet that state school results would improve drastically. Controversial, I know.

Answering splodge2001 very late in the day!!!! You need a school that is a member of the Whitgift Foundation.

On an income of £31,000 pa you would pay £1,401 pa for one child or £1,230 pa (per child natch) for two.

On an income of £19,000 pa you would pay £201 pa for one child or £150 pa (per child) for two.

I know a single mother on benefits who pays £100 pa for her son.

Most teachers working in the independent sector were actually trained to a large degree in the state sector eg at tax payers expense- this needs to be factored in when looking at whether private school helps the state sectors- its like doctors/nurses trained in the NHS leaving to work in the private sector -its a huge drain

TDiddy
Your choice!

dorothy - good point!

ABetaDad and TDiddy - you have made very valid points.

Not asking for sympathy obviously, we are lucky to be in the situation where we can (just!) afford private fees.

But it is a bit much to be told that those who state educate are actually SUBSIDISING me which is clearly not the case!

I admire Fiona Millar (Mrs Alaistair Campbell) for essentially taking over local school with other parents and raising standards. I wish that I had the time and drive to that.

dilemma456, if my suggestion on how private schools could really do something of charitable value ends up closing them down, then it's an even better idea than I first thought...
(am joking. Sort of. Should put one of those winky things but feel strangely awkward about using them)

But it's not just about money YR - by removing yourselves and your children from the state system, you change the very nature of the state system.
Areas with lots of private schools have worse state schools... the state schools (in similar areas) with fewer private schools do better. It affects the whole system!

So that's why it seems a bit much to then say those schools have charitable status, when they actually worsen the experience of those with fewer economic choices.

It's an interesting debate

It's not hard to demonstrate public benefit if you can be arsed. Open up the school hall a few times for local groups to use free of charge, send your teachers along to the local comp once a term for an interschool event, invite the local SNU kids to your gym for a picnic in the summer.

If a school can do that I have no issues about them having charitable status but to just have it and refuse to follow the guidelines is wrong. I've worked fro several charities and we had to follow every guideline to the letter- a volunteer put up a poster advertising a coffee morning without a charity No. (this was a national cancer charity) and the charity comm. were down on us like a ton of bricks! They almost closed down that regional group.

It should categorically be one rule for all, you demonstate the neefit and get the rewards or you don't and you forego them. That's doubly true at a time when charities are going under and important ones such as HomeStart are going bankrupt (locally not nationally).