to think private schools having charitable status is taking the piss

[zanz1bar]

Most private schools have their charitable status as an accident of history. Does a school like Eton really deserve the same financial status as the NSPCC.

Can it really be justified by a few subsidized places.

Morloth, do you not think that the situation pre-welfare state was pretty poisonous to people?

Communism never worked and caused a lot of harm, HC.

Removing the cream does not improve the whole.

What do you think rescued children's education pre-welfare state, PW?

"outside the box" ???

That's not outside the box it's off the page.
At the end of the day people have to accept their lot in life sometimes, I will never be Queen, it's upsetting but what can you do, make the best of what we have and I truly believe people generally would be a lot happier if they stopped and smelt the roses where they are in life without constantly trying to get young George from a family of bin men into Oxford/Cambridge.
Even if he is bright enough to hold his own, he'll hate it anyway and have a lifetime of frustration because he doesn't fit in.

Zaz - I thought we would all like to solve the equality problem so that every child will have equal access to future success, economic achievement and job opportunities. The only way that will every happen is if there really is a level playing field and just letting a few more kids into the indie system is not going to do that. We need a root and branch review and change of the whole education system

I think there are levels of welfare policywonk I think it is absolutely appropriate and fair that everyone in a society have access to the same free at point of use healthcare, education, even housing. So that a basic quality of life is possible for everyone. If you want more than the basics then you are going to have to work for them and yes to some extent it isn't going to be fair because some people are smarter and more resourceful than others, that is the way it goes.

Giving people money for nothing is poison and personally I think the left quite likes it this way. It gives them someone to feel superior to and sorry for.

Instead of going for the lowest common denominator, schools could emulate the best.

Parents and children do have equal opportunities. If children behave themselves, listen and do the work that is expected of them, and if families support the school by listening to their children read and reinforce discipline, then they will do fine.

Abolishing good schools will not do anything to change the behaviour of these children and their parent-s-.

at the libertarians (although at the comment about bin men - nice!)

My desire, happily, is for everyone to have equal access to a variety of education methods, such that each family can chose what works best for them. I don't see how vouchers don't address your and policy's need for equality. What can be more equal than the govmt providing £6k per child to apply to whatever school they wish?

I don't see how your solution gives me any choice.

It looks as though I'm in Morloth's camp. (Btw, could someone reply to my lonely gardening post about growing flowers for cutting?)

My brother is a bin man, loves it wouldn't do anything else

well said Scienceteacher. It is the attitude to education that some children and some parents have that cause a lot of problems and angst within the current system. Parental support is the dominant factor in educational outcomes in the majority of cases.

That is what the government should focus upon and change instead of tinkering with the charitable status of some schools that only account for 7% of the school population

Did he go to oxbridge, apple, if it's not a rude question . . .

Actually I object to the bin man comments as well.

If George wants to go to Oxbridge and he is smart enough then he will find a way. If his parent's can't afford/don't care enough to give him a leg up then if he is smart enough he will do it himself.

THAT is really rather the point of liberty.

My BIL is a refuse collector and he enjoys his job. He is well read and intellectual, but had poverty of ambition at key points in his life.

Still, he likes that he and my DSis have a free bus pass.

My DSis's inability to fulfil her potential at school (she was a maverick and almost too clever for the system) lead my parents to send me to an independent school.

George is a lot better off sorting it out himself then being helped by middle class busy bodies. I can predict that geogre will end up as either a high court judge, master of his college or as CEO of a multi-national. Well done George!

Sorry, no bin men in my family . . .

He didn't pass any GCSE's but he had every opportunity to do so, although I think my mother could have done more if I'm honest, discipline etc.
The point I'm making is that constant striving doesn't always mean people are happier once they have achieved social mobility.
I know quite a few high flyers with self destruct buttons (various addictions) because they are working class people in middle class professions and they do not fit in anywhere now.

I have a cleaner! (well she runs her own business now) but she still "does" people's houses.

Though that might just be a clever way of getting paid for her OCD tendencies.

scienceteacher/applenose - good point about your bin men realtives. My BIL interviewed for Oxford. He was good enough to go but he deliberately faled the interview because he just knew it was not him when he got there. He is a lorry driver now and loves his job. Not everyone wants to or needs to go to University.

didn't go to oxbridge, yet happy, hmmm . . .

Social status is a relative thing and we do not have a caste system that locks anyone into a particular place.

We need people at all levels on the employment strata - we need cleaners, labourers, carers. There is nothing to be ashamed of doing these vital roles.

Right now, we are leaning towards having immigrants do these jobs, even though many of them are highly educated. They value education, and their own children will be able to do what they want.

The people who have most difficulty in changing their lives are those below our immigrant labour force, because they do not value education and work and expect handouts.

I very briefly taught in the Berkeley CA school system. This system would routinely adopt the latest pedagogical ideas out of the UC Berkeley Ed Department, so I saw a lot of philosophies come and go, as many as the PhD candidates who completed their theses and graduated.

The hottest thing while I was there was the idea of not tracking, and having heterogeneous classes, including all abilities. People (this was Berkeley, mind) believed that the more advanced kids would help out the less advanced kids. The reality? The more advanced kids were bored and resentful, and the less advanced kids were angry and resentful. NOBODY got what they needed. It wasn't until I INSISTED on a homogenous ability class to work on basic math skills that any progress was made.

Why do people believe that a MN's child and a child whose parents don't parent, aren't even around, have the same needs that will be met by a single teacher in a class of 30? Nobody wins in this picture, despite all the happy dreams of equality.

zazi - my sister has direct practical experience of that as a TA in London state primary schools in quite deprived areas. She routinely asks parents if they ever read to their children. The answer is often "No of course not" and a follow up question to her - "why should we? Our kid goes to school, isn't that your job?"

She compares that with a chld of a motivated parent who is regularly read to at home and listened to reading. By the age of 6 their reading ages will be vastly different even if the two children sit in the same class. That is a practical reality my sister faces every day in a state school.

smallwhitecat in my experience people who have drive and ambition usually get what they are after.