to think private schools having charitable status is taking the piss

[zanz1bar]

Most private schools have their charitable status as an accident of history. Does a school like Eton really deserve the same financial status as the NSPCC.

Can it really be justified by a few subsidized places.

Hear, hear MorrisZapp.

(Have long meant to say how much I appreciate that name...)

Morloth: unfortunately too often true. I'm sure there are honourable exceptions, but having been to a secondary which transitioned from grammar to comprehensive during my time there, and seeing what happened has made me somewhat sceptical of idealogically driven educationalists.

Thanks abraid! That's my first and very treasured hear hear in here.

Glad you like my name too - MZ to friends, of course

I've given you few silent ones in the past, MZ...

Equality is much easier to achieve by bringing everyone down to the same level rather than trying to raise them up.

MZ - I'll hear, hear you too.

Please, government, just take the money you're not having to spend on my DD and spend it on some poor kid whose parents don't, or can't, help her.

Moreover, now I come to think of it, I'd rather have a tax increase if it could really help such children, than pay increased school fees to subsidise a bursary because - you know what? Chances are any kid getting a bursary will already be 'priviliged' by having the sort of parent who is able to push to get one than the other one.

Ain't that the truth Morloth. And abraid, thanks for the silent hear hears too.

"the independent schools become the state schools, without the state saying what goes on in them."

I too struggle to understand why this would be a bad thing.

It would be fantastic but since the government won't allow education without it's interference - HE for example that'll never happen.
It's all for your own good and child protection you see, nothing to do with it's agenda to keep the masses in their place by dumbing down standards.

Haven't read every post. My concern is that this is the tip of the Charity Commission ice berg and that are part of a general overhaul PTAs will also need to be assessed. Some schools have fantastic PTAs and raise a lot of money - but it is only for the benefit on one school. Should PTAs be fund raising for interactive whiteboards etc anyway? Should the PTA be raising money for all children to go on trips instead?

off point I know - but it is something else to consider. Afterall Eton is not like the NSPCC and a PTA is not like the NSPCC.

This is why I don't think we'll ever get to the stakeholder position that UDQ describes, unless this changes. You can't be a stakeholder in a system you have no say in.

As a start, maybe the govt (if not this one, too much to hope for, then the next) could reintroduce assisted places. I'm sure a lot of private schools would be quite happy to have kids from less priviledged backgrounds able to attend, if they didn't have to squeeze their existing families to do it.

Absolutely hatwoman, and I agree with MorrisZapp, my children ARE priviledged on several counts and I accept that.

I do think many people do not accept that their children are priviledged and actually think their children's education is the norm, and that everyone could have it if they just scrimped and saved a bit and were a bit more caring etc etc. Totally ludicrous.

margotfonteyn "I do think many people do not accept that their children are priviledged and actually think their children's education is the norm, and that everyone could have it if they just scrimped and saved a bit and were a bit more caring etc etc. Totally ludicrous."

Really? I don't know anyone who thinks this way, we all know it is the money.

merryberry - if the private/indpeendent schools all shut tomorrow we would all be in the same edicational boat for sure and then the rich parents would start elbowing the poorer parents out of the boat into the sea of failing schools by paying for private tutors and buying expensive houses in catchement areas to get into the good schools.

policywonk - that is exactly what we want. We want money to flee from the rubbish state schools and stay with the good state schools and some of it to go to the private/independent schools. In the end the best schools win out as has happened in Scandinavia. My worry though is it wil be implmented as a half baked 'means tested' policy that does no good but a lot of harm.

Margo - "Only anyone who can afford it can go!!! Some people don't have enough money.... ". I agree people cannot aford the private summer camps but as it is a private/indpendent school someone has to pay for the facilities. Nothing to stop teh state paying fo rplace sat private clubs or indeed (I am glad to see) the state putting on holiday/evening clubs in some schools in some areas. However, not all areas do it so some kids with less well off parents get nothing - just like some of those kids get shoved in a rubbish state schools. It is not right.

Scrap indies and grammars etc Stop all forms of selection and setting. Ability setting in state schools should be banned as it does not help with social mobility. The government should demand that every child has to go to their nearest school regardless of educational need or parental desire. Schools with more challenging needs can be given extra money, paid for trips, staff and facilities in order to balance out the inequalities - and those schools in high house price middle class areas can rely on the PTA to fund all the facilities and extras

Problem solved.

I understand the libertarian arguments re. vounchers - I just don't agree with them. I don't know of any situation, anywhere, in which private control has led to greater equality. Private control (read: control by those holding the most money/resources) always leads to less equal outcomes than state control.

Aren't you just calling for a return to the values of the early nineteenth century? Do you really believe that the post-war welfare state consensus has been a mistake? Do you believe that some people deserve to be poor and disadvantaged, and that these people are not your concern?

Schools with more challenging needs can be given extra money, paid for trips, staff and facilities in order to balance out the inequalities

So immediately you create a 2 tier system, the have nots (and the can't be bloody bothered) get extra help and the parents with a few bob have to pay for any extra help themselves ? How exactly is that fair ?

What precisely do you mean by equality policy?

I think welfare is poison to people, it results in people getting stuck and generation after generation being lost to pointlessness.

Happily Confused,

You are very well-named if you think that removing everything that is good about education is going to solve its problems.

Morloth - I said that 15 pages ago.

Short attention span Apple prolly cause I went to a state school .

Which problem have you solved, happily?

just trying to think 'outside of the box'. On MN people get very worked up about indie vs grammar vs state - they also get worked up if their child doesn't get into the'right school' or has been placed in the 'wrong set'. Lots of parents on here feel their child should have a place in Oxbridge or a Russell Group uni.

There is not a fair solution - and different groups will 'diss' other peoples choices or lack of choice. There will never be a level playing field in any aspect of education because we are all very competitive in todays society. We are all individuals with different needs - some kids are labelled gifted and talented, some play like mozart - but not everyone is a winner.

Likewise it is not a level playing field in healthcare, dentistry etc..