to think private schools having charitable status is taking the piss

[zanz1bar]

Most private schools have their charitable status as an accident of history. Does a school like Eton really deserve the same financial status as the NSPCC.

Can it really be justified by a few subsidized places.

The school I meant is this one

The other thing that oponents of independent education never talk about when they are hammering on about prvate school doing nothing for the community is just how little the state schools do outside term time 0830 -15.30.

My kids independent school is open all summer long running courses, camps and so on. Anyone can go. They do cost money but the school make virtually nothing from renting out their buildings. I see nothing like that being done in the state schools round me. They stay solidly shut throughout the holiday yet there are kids form less well of backgrounds just hanging around the streets desperate for something to do and a safe place to play.

The state is not exactly a paragon of virtue when it comes to opening up facilities outside school time that tax payers have paid for.

I know they are planning to get state schools to offer after school clubs but I am sure as others have said the LEAs will try and do the bare minimum - just like they do now.

Community schools are far more common these days. There is a community high school in my town, the council pays for a Community Education Officer and extra janitorial staff and the building is open all year offering a vast selection of activities and clubs and swimmin glessons and courses etc.

Not that I am an opponent of iindependent schools. Not at all.

smallwhitecat - I don't agree that it's an issue opponents won't grapple with - I said right at the beginning that I consider non-state schools providing education to children with sn that the state can't/won't provide a different kettle of fish. and I don't think there's anything inconsistent with that. I feel the state should provide, or at least fund, such education, - ie ensure it's accessible to all. in fact that's so uncontroversial it feels stupid to even to say it. where I would have a problem is if the state failed to do that, leaving parents of kids with sn to pay for private education (which I'm sure it does). ie I would "blame" the government not the parents or the school.

smallwhitecat - do you get the fees paid?
If not - I'm sure the parents of children with special needs who cannot afford the fees feel exactly the same way. Sadly, they have no option.

Dunno about where you live BetaDad, but round here the state schools provide preschool clubs, after-school clubs, children's centre facilities (for pre-school children, babies, midwives and health visitors) and holiday-time childcare clubs. 'Wraparound care' is becoming the norm for state schools.

oh yes, forgot about all the after school clubs based in schools. Plus some schools run parenting classes and parent and baby groups

pointydog - glad to hear that is happening where you are. It is bordering on the criminal where we are how state schools stay shut all summer while all the independent schools are open.

Lucky you, policywonk - our local state schools don't do any of that!! Well, one (out of the four within walking distance) offers an after school club so I suppose that's something.

Life isn't fair UnquietDad it is never going to be, you have to deal with how the world is rather than how you wish it was.

On HE - I don't know for sure what the figures are. I'm guessing maybe 0.5%. Maybe it's such a minority thing that it just isn't on the radar. Plus, of course, it;s behind closed door s- unless you know someone personally who HEs their children then the chances are you won't know about it. But you can't really miss St Cuthbert's if you drive past it every day.

I do have a writing acquaintance whose daughter is HE'd, and I believe they take her to a "group" - not sure how often that meets, but she isn't being exclusively educated in the home all the time. This sounds an interesting set-up. You don't need to go very far from this before you have, in fact, not Home Education (in the sense that an ignoramus like me would understand it) but, in fact, a small, independent, community-led, non-discriminating, non-fee-paying school for 10-12 children, with no building and a flexible staff. An interesting model.

UQD-

"Does anyone actively want to argue that we would not be better off if we were all in it together?"

I'm going to need some convincing on this. I don't see how adding more people to the system (which is already full to bursting in many places) will help the system. I don't see exactly how some people deciding to opt-out affects the system, both from an intraschool or educational policy perspective.

You can be very rational at times, and I'd be interested in a logical presentation of why you believe this so strongly.

Morloth - that is such a crap response, I'm sorry. Imagine if people came out with that to every issue discussed on here - from husbands who don't stack the dishwasher to interfering mothers-in-law, dog poo and fruit shoots...

and 8.30-3.30 - just noticed.

We have loads of sport leaders (council funded) who run football, rugby, basketball clubs etc. Teachers who run choir, chess and other clubs. Brownie and cub groups who meet in schools. Schools run annual fetes that are open to the community. Absolutely fantastic school concerts in the evening.

Also the council funds community education department and they have a separate building where there is a youth club for teenagers, a girls club for older primary girls and more.

Plus the library (council funded) runs the reading scheme and welcomes kids sitting aBOUT reading and they have loads of computers for kids to use as well as adults.

Plus the council produces a booklet listing all summer activities including free swimming sessions.

Bored kids my arse.

Metella - well none of my (numerous) local independent schools run low-cost holiday schemes or after-school clubs for paupers so I guess I'm unlucky on that score

beta, sorry I am beatin gyou over the head now with all my listss.

I just don't see why all the onus falls on schools. Community Education and Leisure are also council departments that often do lots for young people. Is it really that different in Scotland?

I do UnquietDad I assume all people are out for themselves/their families and will throw anyone under the bus they need to - I know I would, hence the private education my DS receives. Other people's kids are their problem, the kid's in my family are mine.

The world makes a lot more sense this way and it never ever changes because humans are as inherently selfish as any other animal.

I have absolutely no idea what all the many private schools do in the hols. They have certainly never advertised it to me.

LOL, policywonk! The independents here are taken over by Baracuddas and Super Camps in the holidays.

With regards to HE moving into a "small, independent, community-led, non-discriminating, non-fee-paying school for 10-12 children, with no building and a flexible staff."

Fees would be required to pay that small flexible staff. I'm not a candidate for HE because I'd be a miserable formal teacher to my dc. But I wouldn't balk at paying a tutor to do just that. Again, I'm paying a fee.

I would never ask another parent to educate my child without returning the favour in kind, or paying in some other way. Even if no money is involved, there will be some sort of economic transaction as an exchange of services.

Policywonk, there is plenty of stuff going on in the state schools after hours and during the holidays here too. Dd1's state primary now has a parents' centre in it and run adult education classes, has an after-school and breakfast club and runs clinics. Her secondary school runs sports activities all summer long, and I'm sure there's more going on that I don't know about. Even dd2's special school runs a playscheme every holiday.

Anything over three children anyway and you are legally a school with all the burdens of documentation, policies and employment obligations. It all costs money.

LOL at "You can be very rational at times"

Nicest backhanded compliment I've had all day.

I've said it again and again on here - I'm not an education expert, I'm just a parent who wants "the best" for his children, just as much as the private fee-payers want "the best" (although they seem to think this desire is exclusive to them).

London aside, "the system" is actually full of spare places (although I see things are changing in the recession). When people say they are "no" places, they usually mean at the "good" schools. I don't have all the answers for how exactly the inequalities in our school system can be addressed - but surely that doesn't stop me from pointing out its current flaws. (The fact that the alternative to something would be difficult to implement doesn't mean that the thing itself is necessarily good.)

Why would it be a good thing to be all in together? I always come back to the "stakeholder" notion. Until and unless we all feel we have a stake in education for all, some schools which are seen as "lesser" will suffer. And while an opt-out is available, that stakeholder mentality is not going to be there.