to think private schools having charitable status is taking the piss

[zanz1bar]

Most private schools have their charitable status as an accident of history. Does a school like Eton really deserve the same financial status as the NSPCC.

Can it really be justified by a few subsidized places.

[ABetaDad]

bathtime - I know a few private school have become academies in the state sector. The parents are very happy as the state now pays 10o% of the fees. The state has lot out really though as even wealthy parents at these school effectivley now get a 100% state funded bursary. Great!

My DSs school is under some financial pressure and if it became an academy I would jump for joy. Save me a fortune

MIFLAW - I did not understand your point about sending my kids out to work. I am entitled to send my kids to state school anyway whether I get the cost refunded as a voucher or not. I could use the money to send them to a state school or add a bit more of my own and send them to a private school which is what will happen if the Tories bring in a voucher ststem. The best schools will be dominated by the middle and upper class who can afford to pay something towards the school fees. Poorer kids wil be forced into the worst school.

[MIFLAW]

"Modern thinking has led to a breakdown in society, especially with regards to family life."

Which elements of "modern thinking" have done that? Please explain.

"This in turn has lead to endemic bad behaviour in schools, which is why those that can do their utmost to turn away from these schools."

Really? You don't think it might be to do with underemployment, large class sizes, a strait-jacketed national curriculum, Britain's dropping from first division to second division in the world power stakes, a failure to keep step with the move to an international marketplace or a post-industrial economy, to name a few potential reasons off the top of my head? It's all down to modern thinking (which, again, you'll need to define), is it?

[Metella]

sploge2001, at our local private school almost half of the children receive help towards the fees - that's hardly a tiny fraction!!!!

[Streetlight]

I hate the whole concept of private schools. That's all I can really say. Unless they are set up specifically to help kids with specialised needs that cannot sensibly be met by the state sector, I think they are an unfair thing and ought not to be confused with a charity.

My mother had a scholarship to a specialised school as she was extremely talented and very poor. That was a good thing and yes, totally appropriate as a charity.

But most private schools are just offering a privileged set up for people who have plenty of dosh. That doesn't deserve any type of public funding.

[scienceteacher]

Go into a state school and you will see what I mean.

Bad behaviour is the scourge of state education, and is what drives parents into the independent sector.

The cause of bad behaviour - well, it doesn't take Einstein to work it out - poor parenting and lack of family values.

[MIFLAW]

ABetaDad

You typed - "Tell you what if the state handed back to me the money it saved by me paying for my kids education I would be happy the pay the VAT on the school fees. I would be quids in." I was imagining a scenario in which that happened and you then lost the income that allows your children to attend private school. As I cannot believe you would then go cap in hand to the very state provider form whom you had so cockily demanded a refund - but as you would still need income for life's other little luxuries, like food - I can only imagine that your children would then go without education.

Unless, of course, you hadn't thought it thorugh and were just coming the Big I Am to make a point.

[Streetlight]

That school was purely for kids who were good at something specific though, I ought to say - it had 11 pupils when it began. A few hundred now I think, internationally.

It wasn't just a scholarship to a normal private school. This was purposely for one thing.

[MIFLAW]

"The cause of bad behaviour - well, it doesn't take Einstein to work it out - poor parenting and lack of family values." Hang on - just now it was modern thinking! Again, can you please be specific about what you think is the problem?

I have been into state schools, having been educated in one myself and then trained to teach in them, and I do know what they are like. They are all vastly different. Much like private schools, I would posit.

[scienceteacher]

Modern thinking has lead to the breakdown in the family and the resulting lack of family values and poor parenting.

Modern thinking - ie anything goes lifestyles - have lead to poor behaviour in schools.

It is not rocket science.

[Streetlight]

I'd like to know what 'family values' means, I've never understood that one.

[Streetlight]

And what you mean by 'anything goes' lifestyles'. Can you be more specific?

[scienceteacher]

Where have you been hiding, streetlight? It is quite a hot topic.

[AppleandMosesMummy]

MIFLAW - with respect he didn't say he would ask for all the tax he'd ever paid back and would therefore never bother the state again for food or water did he ?

Although I have to say if I didn't pay any tax or national insurance I am pretty sure I would have the intelligence to ensure I provide for myself whether I work or not.
This is half of the trouble with state education, they teach people to be reliant on the state.
There is no actual need to be, learn about economics, investments etc and you won't ever be in a position where you have to accept rubbish education, rubbish health care, be waiting for a giro to buy food.
Take responsibility for your own lives.

[AllFallDown]

YANBU

They should not have charitable status in the first place, since their main purpose is not charitable. As to the current story, two out of five schools surveyed so far (two out of ONLY FIVE) have been shown to be failing to provide the necessary minimum to be considered to be acting as a charity. Charitable status has for many, though by no means all, private schools long been no more than a moral fig leaf behind which to hide the fact that their principal purpose is to rake in large amounts of money (remember the Competition Commision report a couple of years back that showed the leading schools were engaged in an unlawful cartel to drive up fees).

By the way, ABetaDad, the accusation that anyone who thinks they should not have charitable status is engaging in "class hatred" is just ludicrous. It's always interesting how when anyone suggests social inequities be addressed, someone else accuses them of class hatred. We may as well accuse those who decide they don't want their children educated alongside state school kids of class hatred. It's no more ridiculous a suggestion than yours.

[Streetlight]

I haven't been hiding, I'm just interested in those ideas you have, it's something I worry about too, but I can't sort it out in my ehad. So if you would explain it better for me I'd be glad.

[scienceteacher]

How can the main purpose of a school not to be to advance education??? Curious.

The only reason two schools were stripped of their charitable status was because they did not sufficiently make access to their benefits available to a significant proportion of the population.

[zanz1bar]

Oh god are we on the family values rant.

In my private school well over half the children came from 'broken homes' parenting done by the polish nanny for most of the childs waking hours.

[AllFallDown]

Scienceteacher - this "modern thinking" would of course be the result of the Thatcher era - when we were told "there is no such thing as society", and aggressive individualism was promoted as the best means towards progress.

[splodge2001]

This argument seems to have gone a bit wonky.

Keeping fees low so that more people are out of the state sector and thus burdening it less is not being charitable. Otherwise you could argue that private health is also charitable.

Charity is more direct than that. It's more like 'I've got cash, you havent, here you go, here's 20 quid'

Does anyone really have a problem with that?

METELLA - which is this magical school of which you speak??? Can I get my son in?

[Streetlight]

So because I don't understand your phraseology I'm not allowed into the argument?

I jsut wanted to know what you meant by 'family values' and 'anything goes lifestyles'. But if it's too much trouble i'll just go and look it up

[zanz1bar]

Sorry couldn't resist the rant.

[OrmIrian]

What demonstrable public benefit do they give to wider society? They educate the children they are paid to educate. So what? Hair dressers cut the hair of the people who pay them. Restaurants feed the people who pay them to do so. The only charitable aspect is the bursaries they offer to poorer kids - but those aren't exactly plentiful.

[AllFallDown]

Yes, scieneceteacher - they did not make access to their benefits available widely enough to be considered a charity. As I said.

[scienceteacher]

And the 'class hatred' allegation does have merit.

If people claim to be concerned about tax revenues, then they are mistaken because removing charatible status can only lead to more children in the state sector, which would be a public cost.

And all those working mums, like me, who only work to afford school fees, will give up and stop paying taxes (except for the VAT on their lunches with the ladies).

The state purse will be a net loser. That is why the arguments are purely ideological (ie class hatred).

If you are going to argue it based on money, which is what the charitable status is all about, then just make your arguments monetary.

If it is ideology, then keep the charitable status out of it.

[Streetlight]

Oh forget it then.

You're obviously not going to bother explaining.