to think private schools having charitable status is taking the piss

[zanz1bar]

Most private schools have their charitable status as an accident of history. Does a school like Eton really deserve the same financial status as the NSPCC.

Can it really be justified by a few subsidized places.

soapsy - the offence I found was in your statement that people with a different perspective to you are (your words) "lying". The perspective you refered to was

"I will be thinking about the benefit to my child and his future, not that of society when I decide where to educate my child."

You said that anyone who claims differently - ie anyone who claims to take into account benefits to society - is lying. yes I find that offensive and presumptious. and wrong.

In your reply you asked me if I would put my perception of the needs of society above that of my child. The answer to that question is no - and I never said I would. What I said was simply that there are people, including me, who do think about benefits to wider society when making this decision. When I decided where to educate my children I took both into account. I am fortunate in that I see wider benefits to society as ones that acrue to my children too. It is, after all, the society in which they live. I find this tendency to rank considerations in a linear order of importance a simplification of the actual decision-making process. I hate the accusation (put quite often by some people, and implicitly, I think, by you) that, by thinking of the bigger picture, people are putting politics/ideology before their children. or that selfishly "sacrificing" them. It's a lot more complex than that.

Also in your reply you said that it is normal to do what's best for your child. of course it is. And I never said any different. something we agree on!

So I'm quibbling over "independent". I suppose it annoys me but it's not a deal-breaker. Are we done on here yet?

There is of course another way to look at it, if you took away charity status and ran the schools as business' the maintenance of the property, teachers salaries etc etc are all tax deductible and the parents would probably pay less because if it was a choice between paying tax or paying a music teacher to provide lessons that parents currently pay for then I know which our head would choose.

If we're done here, UQD, perhaps you should start a thread on whether, in the 21st century, charitable status should apply to
"the advancement of religion"

because what benefit that confers on society eludes me.

Hi DG,
What is being claimed by the schools that are not meeting the public benefit requirement is that the requirements do seem to be very heavily weighted toward bursaries, rather than other public services, as was originally understood.

The reason budgets are so thin in independent schools is the intent to keep tuitions low. Most schools operate on that fine line. It's not a matter of "not being able to manage a budget."

UQD prefers the term 'private school' because it fits with his prejudiced idea of chinless white British toffs rushing across the quad with their Millers antiques guide under their arm, hoping Powlett or Barty (who are in charge of the tuck shop on Wednesdays) might accept an early Georgian side table in exchange for a line of coke.

But I found this on the BBC website this morning in an article about private schools:

"There was a small increase in staffing levels, further reducing the teacher-pupil ratio to just over one to 11.

For the first time the ISC asked about the ethnic background of pupils.

Results from about 75% of the schools showed some 78% were white British and 21% were from a minority ethnic background, compared with 85% and 14% in state schools."

Quite so, Zaz. A well-managed budget in a not-for-profit organisation doesn't have any fat in it. So its not easy for it to adapt to retrospective changes in the rules.

Quite so Swedes. My DDs class is 25% non-white. They also nearly all have Lancashire accents. Its just so not like the sterotype of braying toffs that so many people seem to unthinkingly adopt.

In DS's independent reception class last year there were 15 children. 4 of whom were British.

I don't mind about the charity status one way or the other, we send DS to this school for purely selfish reasons and am not sorry at all that we can afford to give him a leg up.

It is a nice school with nice kids and nice teachers, we didn't want him to get too far into the British school curriculum as you guys start a good year (and a bit more) ahead of when the Aussie system picks them up so the whole Montesorri thing works well with him not having to settle down too soon.

Are all independent schools charities?

We are about 25% non-white too.

This is unlike nearby maintained schools, where white kids flock to one school, and Asian kids to another.

I take the point that all schools are dependent on something:
Money, religious affiliation, a house in catchment, a sibling already at the school, ability to pass the entrance exam.

However I will still continue to use the term independent ( sorry UQD ) because for me it sums up the important fact that these schools are not dependent upon the state, nor under its control.
Given what Ed Balls, is currently trying to do to home educators ( possibly the finest example of an independent education ), I for one am happy to distance myself from the governments intrusions into education.

I don't think private schools are full of white toffs.

I think they are full of children whose parents can afford the fees (regardless of background, ethnic background or accent) and thus 'buying' them a better education and opportunities.

Therefore, they are not available to probably about 90% of the population.

I think there is a dispropotionate number of MNers who send their children to a fee paying school, but I also think there are a disproportionate number of MNers who actually aren't jealous but fundamentally think the education system is unfair for many disadvantaged children in this country.

I think many parents at fee paying schools never meet parents who could afford to pay fees, but don't (as they have decent state schools available)and so immediately assume anyone who doesn't use the private sector must be jealous.

margofonteyn - yes I send my kids to private school and yes I think it is unfair to many disadvantaged children. I am in two majority camps there.

I also think there a lot of people on here fighting the class war using education as a football. A camp I am not in.

Margotfonteyn - "I think many parents at fee paying schools never meet parents who could afford to pay fees, but don't (as they have decent state schools available)and so immediately assume anyone who doesn't use the private sector must be jealous." Most of my friends and family send their children to state schools. I live in a place with really top drawer state schools but still choose to pay. Though I can see why it's convenient for you to assume people only pay if the state offering is poor and that they only associate with other fee-payers.

A lot of the parents I know at private school actually only send them because the local state school do not offer wrap around childcare and the parents want to work.
Apparently all schools were meant to offer before and after school clubs by 2010 but they've sent around a questionnaire and there's no demand (because all the working parents are using private schools and nurseries) so they are wriggling out of that.
There are lots and lots of reasons why people feel they have to pay and not associating with riff raff is rarely one of them.

"I think many parents at fee paying schools never meet parents who could afford to pay fees, but don't (as they have decent state schools available)and so immediately assume anyone who doesn't use the private sector must be jealous. "

now that's just silly. I certainly know users of both sectors. I don't actually think most parents are consumed by jealousy. But unfortunately - despite its many virtues - left-wing governments can fall prey to the politics of envy.

Removing choice from the luckier members of society doesn't necessarily confer benefit on the disadvantaged.

I can afford to buy lots of fresh fruit etc for my DD. I don't think anyone would suggest that I shouldn't do this, because its not fair on disadvantaged kids whose parents can't afford it. How does this really differ from buying enhanced education?

The majority of my friends use maintained schools.

It is the opinion and prejudice of the ill-informed about independent education. A vast number of kids in independent schools are from ordinary families who make huge sacrifices in order to send their children. Not forgetting they are also still contributing to state schools through taxes. One of our local independent school foundations offers a huge number of subsidised places to local kids and many local schools benefit from its facilities. If our state system wasnt so woefully sub standard perhaps there wouldnt be such a demand for independent schools, which, despite the recession , pupil numbers are still increasing

Indeed Nursenatty,

The maintained sector needs to stop whingeing about the independent sector and start emulating.

Stop focussing on the evils of independent education and put your own house in order.

Oh that's just daft to say indie parents and children only hang out with other indies.
My entire family were and are state educated.
Most of my mates were state educated and are state educating their kids. How could it be otherwise given the figures?
In fact the only other private school parents I know are the parents at my DC's school.
You're not seriously suggesting they could be the only people I meet on a day to day level?

ABeta makes a good point about education being a football in a class war.

Applemoose....don't think there was a questionaire done here...

ROFL at not meeting non-independent school parents.
Two of my children are at independent schools, one is at a state school. ALL of their 20 cousins are at state schools. I went to a state school. DD is still friends with children from nursery who all went to state schools and i remain friends with their parents. DS1 is 16 and his friends are from four of the local schools, two independent and two state.

What odd notions there are ?

Litchick - exactly. I only know indie parents at my kids school and then only a few of them at all well. However, I know plenty of other parents who are really close friends who send kids to state school.