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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think private schools having charitable status is taking the piss

1001 replies

zanz1bar · 14/07/2009 09:21

Most private schools have their charitable status as an accident of history. Does a school like Eton really deserve the same financial status as the NSPCC.

Can it really be justified by a few subsidized places.

OP posts:
YorkshireRose · 14/07/2009 14:29

Bathtime - isn't it a bit condescending to say schools need the middle classes to turn them into decent schools. Why can't decent hardworking working class parents get together to turn their schools around?

YorkshireRose · 14/07/2009 14:33

By the way, private members clubs also enjoy all the VAT exempt status and tax exempt status that private schools enjoy - but I haven't noticed anyone trying to get this abolished. And there are some VERY wealthy clubs (and members) benefitting from this. I know because I used to be the finance manager at one well known club.

scienceteacher · 14/07/2009 14:36

I would like to declare now that I have a degree froma Russell Group University and a PGCE in the subject that I teach.

All of my colleagues have QTS.

Some schools may have much older teachers without a formal teaching qualification (they may have a PhD though); they may also have Gappies, who do Games and support. But the majority of schools value a PGCE - if nothing else, it shows that you are committed to your own career.

We all do Continuing Professional Development too, but usually to learn about how children learn rather than trying to get new techniques on how to get them to behave.

MIFLAW · 14/07/2009 14:38

No - the POINT, Yorkshire Rose, is that he is choosing not to take advantage of something provided by the state.

Do you know what? I haven't had a car for the past four years. Can I have my money back that's been spent on motorways, dealing with pollution, and sending ambulances to RTAs? Similarly, I have no school age children at all but have been paying taxes for about 20 years - can I get a rebate on that too? And how about state support of religion - can I have a cheque?

No, of course I can't, it's a bloody silly idea.

When I make a choice, I pay for that choice, on top of everything I have already laid out in tax, on the understanding that all of that stuff is there if I need it, and that I benefit indirectly (educated workforce, good communications for freight ... Still not sure how I benefit from the Church, but hey ho.)

So, once I stop bleating about all that "lost" money, the comparison is then between paying full cost of my choices to "opt out" or having them subsidised by other tax payers.

I think the former is fair and the latter is unfair.

Now THAT's simple ...

UnquietDad · 14/07/2009 14:51

bathtime said "by removing yourselves and your children from the state system, you change the very nature of the state system."

This is a point which is often missed in this argument. If the state system was for all, it wouldn't be the same state system we know today, so to argue that the current state system wouldn't cope is not strictly relevant - it wouldn't be the current state system. It would be something slightly different.

People seem to base the argument on some John Wyndham-esque scenario where you wake up one morning and all private schools have vanished. It wouldn't happen like this.

Also, I may be missing something, but most charities are set up with a readily-identifiable group of "needy" or vulnerable whom they benefit. Age Concern benefits vulnerable older people. Children In Need benefits needy children. I'm prepared to accept that children from a few poorer families go to independent private schools on bursaries, but that's far from the complete target group. Where is the "need"?

I'll reiterate my usual stance, which is that I strongly feel there is a need for an alternative to state provision for children who, for whatever reason, would not "fit" into it. But if I were to make a list of criteria, the fatness of Daddy's wallet and the variety of god believed in would be so far down the list they wouldn't even be on it.

YorkshireRose · 14/07/2009 14:53

No MIFLAW, that is your point not mine - and not the point that was made by the OP. This thread is really going off at a tangent.

I still do not see why people who make my education choices should be accused of getting unfait tax breaks when it is patently not true. That is my point and my ONLY point. I am not really interested in getting into the morals of this, it has been done to death in lots of other threads.

I have never once complained about paying taxes towards state education. Just fed up of being accused of getting tax advantages which are not real.

UnquietDad · 14/07/2009 14:55

Isn't the reason that teachers from private schools rarely move into state that it isn't very easy to do so? You need a PGCE to teach in any state school, whereas you don't need one in a lot of private schools.

YorkshireRose · 14/07/2009 14:57

You have apoint, UnquietDad - the situation in other countries such as France supports this. But how will that be brought about here? When we have a state education system of that standard, count me in. Until then, i will do whatever is right for my kids.

FairLadyRantALot · 14/07/2009 14:58

hmmm after reading that in Apple's private school teh administrators write the lesson plans, I can only say....wow...am I glad my Kids are at state school, where a qualified Educator writes the lessons plans they teach. Obviously my Kids get a supirior (sp?) Education without me having to pay extra...

UnquietDad · 14/07/2009 14:59

YorkshireRose - I realise it's unfortunately a circular argument. It won't change until everyone uses it, and until everyone uses it, it won't change!

happywomble · 14/07/2009 15:02

I think the reason private teachers stay in the private system is that the experience is more enjoyable. Why would you want to teach a class of 35 when you can teach a class of 20 or fewer for the same wage. Longer holidays etc.

There are a lot of militant lefties in the state sector who would not employ a private school teacher however good they were due to the simple fact they have taught in the private sector. And people who have not experienced the benefits of the private sector have all sorts of misconceptions of it. UQD is a prime example ...

YorkshireRose · 14/07/2009 15:04

I know UnquietDad, and I myself would have used the local state schools if I had only been able to get a place for my DDs - the schools round here are very good! So the issue is by no means cut and dried.

swedesinsunglasses · 14/07/2009 15:04

I'm looking forward to one of the private schools getting actually stripped of their charity status and taking it to court.

Those of you interested in the legal side of this debate (it is more new Labour big talk than anything else tbh) this is v interesting from Peter Luxton at Cardiff Law School, Cardiff

University

And I don't think private schools receiving charity tax breaks is more obscene than the Cats Protection League receiving charity tax breaks.

UnquietDad · 14/07/2009 15:14

Oh, go on, explain to me why I am a "prime example"....

UnquietDad · 14/07/2009 15:15

YorkshireRose, could you not get a place at all? I don't think that's legal. The Local Authority has a duty of care to educate all children within it. I have a source for this - will find if needed.

pointydog · 14/07/2009 15:18

militant lefties in teh state sector - it's like Thatcher 1980s speech all over again

ABetaDad · 14/07/2009 15:22

TDiddy - I am not saying she pulled strings. What I am saying is I would not have the same influence.

*LadyMuck - thank you you explaining something I had heard about but was not quite sure on. Private schools cannot just turn into private companies over night. The assets have to be sold, the money distributed for charitable purpose then the land buildings and teachers go to the private company. It is just churning for no real increase in the availability of private school places. Totally agree.

A private for profit company does not need to give out scholarships at all. Indeed, by forcing private charitable schools to give them out by raising fees it makes the private for profit schools job easier to undermine the charitable sector. Yet another unforseen consequence of this silly hammering of the charitable status of schools.

bathtime - why should I send my bright, sensitive, caring, gentle DS1 to a state school 'to improve it' for the benefit of other children/parents? He wil get a far worse education himself and maybe have a horrible time every day of his school life. Sorry, I am not using the one chance he has to get a good education to prop up a failing state school that is entirely the fault of the failed education experiment this country has run for nearly 40 years.

Frankly, if I could get a good state education like I had when I was a child I would jump at it but I just can't get it where we live and secondary schooling is even worse. This is not an ideological thing for me. As TDiddy says being able to 'walk the walk' is not easy when you are faced with a useless state school versus paying for a good one and ditching your principles. Plenty of Govt ministers and MPs clearly thought the same and quietly went private or did whatever was necessary to get into a top state school.

MIFLAW · 14/07/2009 15:32

Yorkshire

"I still do not see why people who make my education choices should be accused of getting unfait tax breaks when it is patently not true. That is my point and my ONLY point. I am not really interested in getting into the morals of this, it has been done to death in lots of other threads."

Your children's education - which you have chosen to pay for instead of taking the free-at-point-of-use state provision - is unrealistically cost-effective because the school receives a tax break on the basis of being a charity. If they didn't get it, your choice would still be a choice but it would cost you more.

That is the OP's point and that is my point. It's nothing to do with the morals of private education, and everything to do with the morals of paying the full price of a service you choose to use instead of letting the state bail you out. We ALL end up paying for stuff we don't use via the tax system but we get it back in other ways, even if it's via the benefits we derive from membership of the society as a whole. It is impractical and swingeing to ask for a pick 'n' mix system. I have no issues with you using private schools, as long as you don't then set yourself up as a saint for paying more than you should.

Qally · 14/07/2009 15:40

it'd be interesting to see how much the gift-in-aid and VAT exemptions are worth, compared to the amount it would cost the Exchequer to educate those priced-out if VAT were added to the fees (real figures, not private school provided, in case such exist and someone starts brandishing them). With the income tax from gift-in-aid retained by the Treasury (some donations are blardy enormous), and VAT applied on fees (and many private school pupils come from overseas, anyway, actually), we could perhaps manage to state educate those priced out on the proceeds. I don't believe the correct application of the 17.5% will dissuade enough parents from privately educating, to remove that net benefit to the Treasury.

"Qally - the charitable status is offered because it costs the revenue less than paying for state education for those children whose parents whose income is at such a level that they would not be able to afford the fees if they went up due to loss of the school's tax status.

It is simple hard headed economics. The government never GIVES anything away! "

Sorry, Yorkshire Rose, but that's utter rubbish. I studied the history of charities as part of my degree. Wealthy families used to educate their kids at home, their own or with another asristo family - schools such as Eton were set up to benefit the poor, fees being standard then in the same way as most schools today in sub-Saharan Africa charge fees. The charitable status of private education is a total historical accident, and the government has been applying increasing pressure on schools to prove that they share their facilities with the local people and offer generous bursaries, because without that, it's a tax dodge for the wealthy, but one it's politically tricky to remove as the powerful tend to privately educate.

It's a total nonsense to say people are "subsidising schools with their taxes" - are you subsidising criminals with your prisons, too? We all benefit from an educated population. Not quite sure why that point is lost. We rarely drive and don't own a car; my mother is Quaker. Other people are childless. Yet we all still pay for Defence and roads and schools. Such is democratic life.

Scienceteacher, I can think of one excellent reason your kids might benefit from a state education. They'd be less likely to regard poor people and everyone unlucky enough to need state help as "spongers". What horrifying attitudes: so denying the Treasury via tax avoidance is absolutely fine, but needing 50 odd quid a week from the Treasury to be able to eat makes someone the lowest of the low?

I have no problem with private education, just with tax breaks aimed squarely at the wealthiest.

scienceteacher · 14/07/2009 15:47

It wouldn't cost her more if the school ditched all their bursaries.

But who would be the losers? Not full-feepaying childdren, but those bumped back into the state sector.

Metella · 14/07/2009 15:49

Interesting Swedes.

MIFLAW · 14/07/2009 15:49

Well said, Qally!

scienceteacher · 14/07/2009 15:50

Qally, I was careful to say taht I did not regard everyone in receipt of state benefits as spongers. Only those that are able to work and don't. There is quite a difference.

Those people are spongers, whatever way you slice it.

And my children are a lot more compassionate than the yobs that roam our local streets.

scienceteacher · 14/07/2009 15:52

BTW, I don't believe there is gift aid on school fees. We pay fees out of fully taxed income.

Umlellala · 14/07/2009 15:52

Why are kids being educated in the state sector the losers? I will choose to send my kids state because it's best for them IMO.

I don't consider them the poor kids who are soooo unlucky they can't go to wonderful private schools .

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