to think parents shouldn't bring their child up vegetarian?

[Picante]

Unless for religious reasons.

Yes this is a thread about a thread but I think I was annoying too many people over there so I've started my very own for people to get annoyed with me here!

I just think it's mean. Meat is such a huge part of our culture and fair enough if you're old enough to decide that you don't want to kill animals... but children should be given all sorts of food in the early years, including meat, until they are old enough to make that decision for themselves!

Ema76, no, YOU think all meat is cruel, all meat isn't cruel.

You are entitled to your opinions but you can't make such a blanket statement like that.

That is your belief.

Have you ever spent time on a farm, with a farmer who cares for his animals, or gone to an abattoir to see the respect that animals are shown, worked in a butchers shop where people take pride in the produce that they are selling?

I don't think you have?

Yet, unless everyone is eating organic food, you are advocating a diet, that due to the demands on arable farming land, food that is pumped full of chemicals, pesticides etc.

Flappy - "UK rose veal isn't cruel" "All meat isn't cruel"

You are also making blanket statements which not everyone agrees with.

Can't you see that?

I only mentioned the desert island survival as others kept bringing it up (I did give my opinion on it in a previous post, but to clarify my wording on my last post...), it's a twist to it really, I don't believe that it's a likely scenario so I don't think about it myself, however it's so absurd to me that I thought I'd change it a bit so the ones asking it can see how I feel about it, if that makes sense? In college I was always asked that one and it was bloody annoying. Veggie or not who brought it up, it's still an absurd question because it just isn't likely to happen.

I also agree with piscesmoon on the controlling what your DC is eating, it just wouldn't work. You'll find them going behind your back and feeling as though they can't trust you with their opinions.

I don't think meat is cruel really, well, some is highly disturbing and cruel, but it's going to happen at the end of the day and there's not much we can do about it. Some people are so set in their ways that they refuse to even consider cutting down even, so the meat industry will always thrive, the cruel and the more humain parts.

Are you aware of the animal welfare involved?

That is why I specifically mentioned UK rose veal, as opposed to european veal, which is predominantly crate veal - yes this is a cruel method, I agree.

But, where there are strict guidelines in place to ensure that NO animal cruelty takes place, I am quite happy to state again, that all meat isn't cruel.

What would you rather have, a male dairy calf taken from it's mother at 24 hours of age, shot and incinerated or raised as a veal calf under strict animal welfare conditions before being killed and it's carcass used instead of being wasted?

All those vegetarians who drink milk, eat cheese, yogurt etc, do you honestly think that dairy cows only ever give birth to female calves??????

Only females are of use in the dairy farming industry, males are worthless to both farmer and industry.

I am vegan. I am aware.

I am happy to state 'my belief' that the unecessary taking of any animal's life is cruel.

Spare a thought for us vegetables,

There we were, growing happily, minding our own business, when suddenly........

We were ripped/picked or dug out of what we had come to view as our home.

Then, with absolutely no respect, stuck in a crate, with very little space and then if you were the right size or shape, you were one of the lucky ones.

You would be destined for the supermarket shelf, the pinnacle of any vegetables existence, especially if you were chosen for (whispers) Waitrose.

Wasn't all that it was cracked up to be, you have no idea how many different people would handle you each day and by the smell of their hands, I don't think personal hygiene was high on their list of priorities!

When we were chosen, we escaped the crate, only to find ourselves thrown into a plastic bag, great - have you any idea how horrible and sweaty it gets inside one of those?

There was a bit of relief though, after a bit of a journey to get to our final destination, a nice cold plastic box. Not cold enough to kill off all our cells that were still alive but meant we would last a bit longer until.......

Then, out we came into daylight once more, hacked to pieces and then tossed into some boiling water.

LMAO.

The desert island may be a bit extreme, but people do actually still live in communities where most vegetables and pulses will not grow. Of course they can be airlifted in, but at huge cost to the environment.

The point about rabbit meat is that rabbits have to be killed anyway, to protect the crops, so it seems wasteful not to make the most of a food source that is already there.

and btw chickens in the wild eat worms as an important part of their diet. so there might well be no vegetarian food fit for human consumption on this hypothetical (and not very plausible) desert island

I do think that it is a shame that people are so far removed from food production. Are you a vegan Ema76-if not have you any idea how milk is produced? I think that it is much more stressful for the cow to be separated from their calf than to be quickly killed , when they know nothing about it, and yet people are quite happy to eat dairy products. A cow crying all night for it's calf is upsetting.

My earlier point exactly piscesmoon, male dairy calves are seen as waste product, but there a number of vegetarians who happily eat dairy products and probably don't give a thought to the process that actually occurs.

Calves that could be used as veal, will always be born as long as there is a dairy industry.

Whereas vegans, like deadflesh, understand completely and I am being sincere here, as they have chosen to completely remove all animal products from their diet.

I personally couldn't do it, as I enjoy meat, eggs, fish and the idea of never having another bacon roll again................

I can see the point of vegans more than vegetarians.(if it is for ethical reasons rather than taste). In addition to the male calves being seen as waste products, the calf has to be removed and taught to drink formula milk, so that the mother cow's milk goes to the dairy.

All DCs could do with being in the countryside and on farms from a young age and they would see how food is produced, rather than it magically being in packets in the supermarket.

I grew up with an uncle who was a beef farmer, a grandfather who was a butcher and my other grandfather worked at the cattle mart.

Therefore, I have always known exactly where meat has come from and how important animal welfare is.

We are teaching our dd's all about the food that we eat and that it doesn't come neatly packaged in plastic containers that remove it so far from it's point of origin, it's difficult to tell what it once was.

yup its paps hi MT

personally i reckon people who are veggie who feed their kids meat, do it from a deep down feeling that they wont do an adequate job with just the vegetarian diet. that quiet niggle, pressure in their mind from meat eating sector.

meat for sure tastes yum Picante and its easy to cook and feed yourself that way. and its part of our culture for sure but suddenly seeing it as ok to not feed your meat kid for religious reasons...? Maybe thats mean too. If we are denying them a 'healthy' life. Parallels like that, culture and belief, shows how programmed we are to different perspectives regardless of whether its good for you or not!

We don't need to eat meat, especially at the rate we that it is consumed in most Western households. Protein overdrive.

I grew up a dairy farm with 250 cows, a pig style that my Uncle appallingly kept in a disgusting state. Chickens in sheds running around. And lots of vegetable gardens.

Was pretty much vegan for 10 years, always knew as a kid I wanted to eat differently from my folks, just did not know what vegetarianism was till I left home. Do eat meat again now, I get it out of the freezer and think, why the hell am I cooking this shite, especially chicken. Not so easy / accessible to get organic meat in NZ. Crate pigs was big in the news here recently. There is a ground swell against this type of farming, I hope it continues to swell.

HI Paps, Have you moved back to NZ??

I think that is will continue to swell. People want to know where their food comes from. My farm shop opened about 2 yrs ago and is doing so well it has expanded. All the meat is from local farms, you can see the animals running around from the door. They have a very happy, open air life. The hens have their own enclosure but are to be seen wandering around the car park. The ducks are on the pond. Rabbits and pheasants are shot locally. They will all be killed humanely, locally, and eaten.
I don't want to live to old age if my quality of life suffers-so I don't see why pigs and sheep would want to.
Why is it superior to fly in vegetables from Kenya?
I think it is a good idea for all children to know where their food comes from. Carrots appear clean and orange on the supermarket shelf-many DCs don't even know they are a root and come out of the ground dirty, covered in soil.I think the reason that allotments are doing so well is that people want to get closer to food production again-as shown by the number who keep hens.
More education on it would be a good thing-I expect it would turn out more vegetarians but at least it would be an informed choice.

Been back in NZ 2.5 yrs now, work at a nursery that as education as part of its ethos, its a trust who also has an environment centre. its funds and another trust we involved with runs shade house programmes for local council for native trees and permaculture gardens at schools. Trees go to restoration projects. It is another good way for people to network. centre is doing a transition towns event next month. on the news now is story about a new movie called Cloned.

Papillon - I don't feed ds meat out of fear I can't manage a healthy vegetarian diet, but because I compromised with dh, who does eat meat. And decided on this issue I'd let him have his way - although I'll be amused if ds does go veggie at some stage.

oo, cory, that is a point I wish you hadn't made

And lol, silly vegetables. Now, fruitarianism is cruel haha Every time I think fruitarian I think of Notting Hill... at least I think it's Notting Hill, I know it has Hugh Grant in it

Ethically, I too understand vegans more. However, I still support local and organic farming more than I do the animal welfare, as that in itself conquers a bit of the animal welfare issues in that the animals aren't cramped up or moved around too much, they're treated well and apparently they taste much better, so I've heard But I'm not in it for the animals, I just don't like the idea of eating somethign that once ran around a field.

Oh! Another argument I hate, the meat eaters who try to argue you by saying that plants feel pain. ffs the amount of times I heard that one when I was in college and the amount of times I explained that I didn't care about the animals so much rolls eyes

I'd feed my kids meat because I doubt I'll end up having kids with another veggie, especially if my current relationship is as promising as it looks (he's keen on blue meat bleugh) but if I were with another veggie I'd raise veghead kids who are welcome to try meat if they choose to do so I made my choice so they are welcome to make theirs.

I remember having those conversations with dh he was vegetarian and i was only buying organic meat in switzerland. not that i don't believe that vege upbringing is unachievable. it is easy for an occasional fix specially when i felt i was not giving enough bean/vege etc.

blue meat? what that! is it cold lol

YABU. The parents are free to decide their child's diet. It would be unreasonable to expect veggie parents to cook meat etc for their children!

Isn't blue meat what they call chuck in a pan for 2 secs, flip, 2 secs, on the plate? That's al I've heard it called before anyways lol Maybe it's not caled that at all But it's pretty much raw meat.