to regret giving my dd a gay packed lunch?

[pointydog]

Dd1 (12) was off on a fun school trip today with a mix of kids from high school.

I suggested a few things for her packed lunch this morning and she went off happily with a peanut butter sandwich, a fruitus bar, a kitkat, some dried apricots, a tub of home-made muesli and a bag of chipsticks.

The tuff kids laughed at her lunch - snorting particularly loudly at the apricots - and called it gay.

I feel like the mum in About A Boy.

Oh you mean gay as in happy? It's a bit old fashioned isn't it? I doubt if they ever hear it in that context, and I think that definition is a bit secondary now, so would probably discourage it.

I am not comfortable with using the word gay to mean happy, probably because the only people I know who have argued that it should mean that are people who think that gay is too good a word for those dreadful homosexuals to use.

People like my father: "why can't they stick to queer instead, that's a better word, because they ARE queer. They aren't gay. They're sad. It's a shame such a good word has come to mean something so unpleasant" etc.

but possibly that's just my father being his normal charming self.

Had to add my two pennorth as rather a lot of people on here seem to be accepting it as "teenage lingo" and "kids will be kids" and it not being a matter to worry about. When it is. The high levels of suicide, depression, self harm etc in young LGBT teens is attributable to endemic homophobia in our schools including unchallenge use of the phrase "that's so gay".

I'm a teacher in charge of tackling homophobia at my school and we have massively educated and cut down on kids using "that's so gay" and as a result young LGBT students report feeling much happier in the school environment. That can only be a good thing.

It is not acceptable to use "Gay" as an insult because using it equates being gay with something that is rubbish or shit- and even if there is no homophobic intent behind it- it propagates this hideous culture of homophobia in our schools and as a result LGBT students are suffering terribly.

Once students have been educated about the terminology and we have had a good old discussion on sexual orientation - the majority of students are happy to try not to use the term "gay" anymore. (in teachers presence at least- but some really do try elsewhere too- have overheard them when they couldn't see me!)

The teacher absolutely needs to challenge it and schools need to challenge it too- yes its difficult and doesn't happen overnight (and in my school there is still a way to go- certain teachers attitudes for example") but kids have to be taught that homophobia along with other forms of prejudice and discrimination is wrong. I even had one kid (muslim)who started in one of my lessons saying "I want to kill all gays" who finished the lesson with "Miss, I still don't like it right, but I sort of get what you are saying about not being mean to someone who is"- you can't say fairer than that!

Oh and my final high horse note to Ms Sunny- "I didn't know any homosexuals at school" well since 1 in 10 (at least) are gay lesbian or bisexual- you probably did but they probably weren't out because of this issue of homophobia in schools. Also equating Gay to mean happy a la Enid Blyton is naive- that term is so outdated and I have never heard it used in that context apart from in books like Enid Blyton from the 50's and 60's and Kids only use it when they are trying to wriggle out of being challenged for homophobic language. And finally- I find it very sad you don't feel the need to talk to your children about people being gay. 10% of people are- they exist and talking about gay people isn't going to harm your child in anyway, in fact I would hope it would mean they would be a little more tolerant than you are coming across in your posts. There is absolutely no need to bring sex into a discussion about gay people at all (the fact that the majority of homophobia seems to stem from issues around the sexual activity of gay men is a whole other rant in itself)- you should talk about relationships.
In fact- to start the discussion- I reccomend a book called "And Tango makes three"- which is a fab true story about 2 male penguins who adopt an egg until it hatches and bring up the chick as their own.

People no longer say 'I'm feeling gay' to mean that they're feeling merry/happy/cheerful. However people might still refer to the 'gaiety' of an event without a homosexual reference being inferred. As an adverb, someone might 'gaily' wind their merry way back from a pub.

So in the three letter form, the merry meaning isn't really there anymore, a group of old people might perhaps say 'Oh we did have a gay, old time' to each other without raised eyebrows.

I can't help thinking that calling a pack lunch 'gay' is a coded way of telling other people that you are badly educated and more likely to pull levers in a factory when you leave school. Apologies to any lever pullers.

Gay was a slang term amongst MANY others when I was at school in the 80's (I'm 36) so can't believe it is still in vogue now.

It meant naff, crap etc and I definately didn't make the connection to homosexuality then so i suspect my peers didn't either and the yoof of today don't now.
Do agree it is not to be encouraged.
My dd is too young to use it yet but I will stamp it out when she does.

Great post Thandeka

Thanks Getorfmoiland- is something I am really passionate about- which apparently makes me gay . In fact another great student response- "Miss, you are really keen on all this stuff - are you gay?" My response- "would it matter if I was?"- Him: "erm no suppose not!" Jobs a good un!

Thandeka - think it's an important job you're doing (does this sound patronising? If so I'm sorry). Really feel very sad that dd was using lesbian as an insult, especially because of the family connection, I very muchhope she has stopped doing it.

Hope that the school she goes to raises objections when they hear 'gay' being used as an insult.

DS (9) now refuses to wear his favourite gap top when seeing his friends because that apparently stands for "gap and proud". I asked him what gap meant and he knew it related to sexuality. Cue a southernsoftie rant about how using such terms is discriminatory and nasty, and anyway pointless as being gay just puts you in the 10% Thandeka mentions. DS slightly taken aback but now completely agrees that using gay to mean sad or rubbish is not OK, regardless of whether there is any discriminatory intent behind it. Still won't risk wearing his top though for fear of being teassed.

Are you not sending out a confusing message if you ban the word? Gay is not a swear word, it should not be an insult either, so if you discourage your children from using the word, are you not sending out a sublime message about gays?

Would it not be better instead, to correct them and explain the appropriate usage for the word?

I don't think gays would be too happy at having the word related to swearing.

I'm sorry, Rhubarb - I don't understand. Most of us are suggesting that gay should not be used as an insult but only to describe a homosexual. No suggestion of banning or using as swearword.

It has been compared to kids saying 'fuck' or calling people 'spaz', which is not a fair comparison at all.

Others have said they would stop their children from using the word gay.

The reason I mentioned it's original context was that it is still printed in Enid Blyton books, and her books are still very popular. I had to tell my dd that gay no longer meant happy. I had mixed feelings about that tbh.

Rhubarb- I agree- its teaching them the correct context- I occasionally like to trot out "Gay stands for Good as You".

Another funny story- 6th form class doing eng lit- gay character in it- one bright spark pipes up "Like Kate" (Kate being student in class). Teacher (not me) goes completely mental about homophobia and class get thorough telling off. Kate is actually gay and out and proud so in that context it was banter and perhaps didnt warrant the reaction it got. But its a fine line to tred sometimes and teachers can get it wrong. But heck at least teachers are trying as unfortunately I know of many teachers/schools who just practice selective listening and ignore it.

Oooh hang on thread moved on.

I would equate calling someone gay (as an insult) has the same severity as calling someone Spaz. Fuck is different as its not really something you call people- I suppose a fuckwit maybe?

I have also heard about parents going mental about kids using the word gay in the correct context which is daft- but parents having words about using it as an insult can only be a good thing.

well...to OP....my son got the odd comments about his lunch at one point (gay being one of them)....it used to really annoy me... and just was proof to me, that by having school uniforms bullying is not stopped...juat different things are picked on instead...but that is neither here nor there...

my son also used to use the word gay (in that not so nice sense)...and I just do what rhubarb says...just correct him by saying...do you mean this and that....just say, of whatever he was talking about...oh that was happy...i.e. re-introduce the origianl meaning...

lol at solid golds post on page one...made me giggle....

I think those comparisons were made to show that that using the word fuck/spaz is unacceptable just like using the word gay as an insult is. I haven't seen anyone saying that they would stop their children from using the word gay when meaning homosexual but I may not be reading the thread closely enough.

But I agree that using the word in context is obviously acceptable.

Yes Lenin, but others have equated it with words like 'fuck' and 'bastard'.

And what if, you stopped someone from calling another person gay, yet it turned out that person was actually gay? The only way we can stop it from being used as an insult, is to stop treating it like one.

I think there are three main categories here:

1. The word gay is used as an insult where sexuality is not relevant (you are so gay, your lunch is gay). This is offensive and unacceptable for all the reasons highlighted above, including the underlying implications that being gay is inferior;

2. Calling a homosexual gay in such a way that it is clear that insult is intended. This is blatant homophobia and for obvious reasons also offensive and unacceptable; and

3. Describing a homesexual as gay where the word is just used as a noun/adjective. This is using the word in its proper context and is obviously fine.

My god we live in such a politically correct world where we daren't say anything for fear of offending someone, I think its time people got over it!

Welcome to the world of high school kids, its the kind of thing that a teenager says! I know gay people who aren't insulted at being called gay.....its what they are!

I think the real issue here is whether it was used as a phrase of banter or used as a way of bullying, if its the latter then its something to keep an eye on, if its just banter then get over it, we live in a very sorry world if we can't even have banter for fear of offending someone.

re whether or not to "tell" young children about gay relationships/gay people: I find the arguments focused on whether or not the child "needs to know" are missing the point. they are addressing the issue purely from the pov of that particular child. but it's not an issue about an individual child - it's an issue about our society. the "point" of ensuring our children are aware that people and relationships come in all shapes and sizes is not just to help that individual child make sense of the world - it's to play our role in building an open, equal, non-discriminatory society.

imo, whatever people say, there's an underlying hint of homophobia about it. if you honestly believe that being gay is, in terms of value, no different from being straight then you would see that applying the "need to know" criteria is completely bonkers. It's like saying that children don't "need to know" that roses come in white - on the grounds that all the ones in your garden are pink.

stillstanding I care enough to not use the word myself, but not enough to get my knickers in a twist if other people do (especially kids/teenagers). I don't think I am particularly unusual in this view.

daftpunk livejournal.com - there are stacks and stacks of messageboards.

oh dear. have been giving DS Puritan lunch