AIBU - to be really pissed off that epidurals are being restricted?

[christmasmum]

Was just reading an article in Mother and Baby magazine saying that epidurals are classed as an 'abnormal birth' and that they should be restricted in the future to avoid women having caesareans.

What is this all about? Why should women not be free to make their own decision on pain relief, while being aware of the risks involved in every form of pain relief? And is it not the case that women having diffcult births in the first place are more likely to BOTH have an epidural AND end up having a c-section anyway??

Before giving birth to my DD I bought into all the information from the NCT, books and magazines etc and was determined to go for a 'natural' birth. I ended up being induced and despite being told by every woman I have ever spoken to who has been induced, that I should have an epidural the midwife advised me that I would not need one. After 10 hours of intense contractions and finding out I was a huge 2cm dilated I decided enough was enough and had an epidural.

I was instantly relaxed and started to actually enjoy the process, 2 1/2 hours later (despite the consultant arriving to prep me for a c-section) I found out I was fully dilated and delivered my wee girl after 5 minutes of pushing to a room that was full of people laughing and singing Christmas carols.

I obviously only have my own experience to go by but I am absolutely convinced that the relaxing effect of being out pain helped me deliver my baby naturally.

What is this pressure on women to be in pain and suffering to be 'real women'. And why is that every new Dad I've spoken to with wives who did not have pain releif seem so proud of them? Is this just another example of male oppression of women? Even subliminally??

AAGGGHHHHH. Rant over.

I didn't have choices for my birth. Well unless I had ignored what the doctors were telling me. Maybe I should have done that?

I reached the point where if someone gave me a gun I would have used it when I was 2 cm dilated and was told there were at least 12 hours to go. You will be impressed that I did not use any pain relief at all, as I was offered none. The first pain relief I had was my spinal block.

So I did my best.

Why do you find it so hard to believe that I am happy that you had birth experiences in the end which were fulfilling for you? I think that is great. I wish everyone could have that feeling. But unfortunately they can't and I find it sad that so many people imply that it is their own fault.

Maybe you need to stop making assumptions and read what's actually in the posts, LTOS

As I said, I have no idea what anyone else's birth experiences were like, I only know what mine felt like. Having said that, I don't think it's that rare for women to feel they want to die - I felt odd about admitting that for a while, and was rather relieved to discover I wasn't alone. But in terms of how it actually exactly feels, of course we can only really know our own experiences.

Ah see I just assume that women who opt for different choices than me are well, different.

ltos..
"Yes, but I resent the implication that women who use pain relief during labour are lacking"

Where on this thread has violet implied this?
Not seeing it tbh.

But violet you said that many women choose to have births without pain relief, as that is better for the baby and the mother from a medical perspective. That they see the pain as endurable as it is the right thing to do for them and the baby.

The bit you are missing is that women who have pain relief have often chosen to go without and then find they can't deal with the pain.

At that point, they can choose to proceed without pain relief or with. However having the pain relief increases risks for the mother and baby, while not having it keeps the risks down.

Ergo, women who have pain relief in labour are putting themselves and their babies at risk, simply because they can't cope with something that the "no pain relief at any cost" people can. The conclusion of that argument, vis a vis the metal strength of the women who go without as compared to the women who opt for relief, is obvious.

Thanks barnsley.

I really do think there's a lot of projection going on here.

(huge sigh)

LTOS - read the thread again - I have not used the words 'better for the baby' at all.Read what's actually there FGS!

I said MY reasons for not wanting certain forms of pain relief were because of the possible side effects or increased risks of intervention. And of women I have talked to in RL, a number of others have said the same thing. MY baby, MY choice. Other people make different choices.

You are the one attaching value judgements here LTOS, not me!

"I really do think there's a lot of projection going on here. "

Me too but i think it is you doing the projecting. You keep saying I am taking it personally but when I point out I'm not with evidence you just ignore that and move on to someone else. It's almost like you don't want to read what we are actually writing.

violethill... You and i have debated and disagreed quite a lot on this thread, about one specific issue.

However, at no point have you suggested or implied that women who have pain relief at any point in the labour have failed themselves or the baby. I know that, i think everyone else does. But, for some reason the fact that you feel empowered by your natural birth has rattled some people. I honestly don't get it. It seems it's ok for women to describe in great detail their horror stories but the ones who want to shout out loud how great it was are deemed as tactless.

Notice, when you and policy started being accused of this i left the thread last night.
Unfortunately i log on tonight to see the same is happening. Very strange..

I know the feeling Libra! I've seen my posts misquoted outrageously!

maybe there is projection but I'd also like to point out that I didn't say I was refering to people on this thread when I commented about how some things wind me up. Lots of people have referenced comments and attitudes they have encountered outside of MN.

I'll try again: saying things like "many women endure the pain because it is better for baby and mother to do without pain relief and they want to put their baby first" DOES imply that if you HAVE pain relief you are less able/strong minded than the other women and also that you have put your babies health at risk just because you couldn't face a little bit of pain.

and I AM NOT attributing this comment to anyone here - I am pointing out that I hae heard this type of comment many times in variuos settings and I find it distressing.

"If a woman decides that she won't have particlar types of pain relief eg, pethidine, epidural, because she doesn't want to expose her baby to side effects or increased risk of intervention, then why can't you just accept that?"

"And IME, those reasons are precisely why many women feel strongly about labour being different from other types of pain, and why they feel strongly that they want to do without certain forms of pain relief. I didn't go without pethidine and epidural because I like pain - I don't!- but because I didn't want my baby to be possibly born very sleepy and have feeding difficulties, and neither did I want to risk further intervention through having an epidural and being unable to feel anything. Most women I know who made the same choice as me feel the same."

If those quotes don't contain value judgements, then, well, i don't know what does really.

Actually if you read my posts I have already said both GOOD and BAD labour stories should be heard, and I'm genuinely pleased for those who have had empowering labours. However you MUST see the implied judgement in saying oh well I didn't have any pain relief because of the health of my baby? (in fact I am pretty sure that VH didnt post that but she jumped to the defence of the person who did when I said it was a little insulting).

Thank you barnsley

I really do not believe that I have said anything remotely controversial on this thread at all. I am pro-choice when it comes to birth (which is why I found the idea of shutting down MLUs scary!). I make no judgement about how other women give birth. That's why it grates a little that when I give my reasons for why I felt like I did about particular forms of pain relief, I'm told I'm 'wrong and insulting' to feel like that. Each to their own, live and let live and all that!

"I'll try again: saying things like "many women endure the pain because it is better for baby and mother to do without pain relief and they want to put their baby first" DOES imply that if you HAVE pain relief you are less able/strong minded than the other women and also that you have put your babies health at risk just because you couldn't face a little bit of pain"

Well i had diamorphine followed by epidural with my 1st and when i hear comments like you have quoted i don't take it that way at all. I made my choice, i stand by it and at the end of the day it is actually a fact that many women due endure the pain because they fear harming the baby. Why would someone feel angry by that comment if they were happy with their own choice to do it with drugs.

BB do you really not think it's tactless to tell women in RL who have suffered trauma due to horrendous births about how wonderful and liberating and empowering it is to do it differently to how they did it?

I just think it's mean.

No-one is telling anyone on this thread to shut up - I think everyone is sharing pretty robust viewpoints. But we are all referencing what has happened in RL, naturally. Not what happens with anonymous people on a forum, where it's easy to not get involved/walk away. Not a choice that people have in RL, a lot of the time.

Like I said, it's better not to offer detail, positive or negative, unless asked. i certainly don't openly share my experiences of BF for that very reason.

LTOS - the issues you quoted in that last post are recogonised side effects/increased risks. They were talked about at my antenatal classes, and you can read up about them in pregnancy and birth literature. Not remotely controversial. Just fact. It doesn't mean you don't care about your baby if you use some of those forms of pain relief. You are the one leaping to that assumption.

No, why is it tactless? It would be tactless if there were long standing problems due to the trauma and of course if harm had come to mother or baby then yes.

My 1st was horrendous, went all pear shaped and was an horrific experience... i still got the most gorgeous perfect ds.
My 2nd was a breeze if i'm honest... i still got gorgeous perfect dd.

I honestly and truthfully after only my 1st experience could not have given a shit about anyone telling me how wonderful their experience was. I got my perfect ds, so does it really matter.

Like i said, tact is obviously called for in other circumstances.

But the risks and side effects of a drug free natural birth are not mentioned, IME.

People are left to find out for themselves which I'm sure adds to the psychological aftermath that a lot of women suffer.

Ante natal types need to talk about the good and the bad, about all the possibilities. All ours talked about were natural birth, hypnobirthing, water birth etc. They did not mention episiotomy, pain, problems. Ventouse and forceps were touched on. CS and epidural we were told the risks but none of the benefits. They did not say that childbirth would hurt . They did not mention induction, which is what I had.

They simply said cascade of intervention, bad. They did not at any point say that any intervention might be necessary.

Which is why I have a bee in my bonnet. Many women do have natural births with little pain relief. That's great. But many many don't, through no fault of their own. But those things are simply not (IME) discussed.

BB I do think it's tactless. The thing of this nature that I took to easily was BF. I do not wander up to my friends who took weeks to establish, who suffered thrush and mastitis, who had bleeding nipples, some of whom gave up in the end, and say "oh I found it dead easy, I decided it was the right thing to do, best for baby and best for me, and so I just got on with it".

I would also never offer this info to a stranger unless I knew their story or they specifically asked.

Sorry to keep giving that as an example but it's the best i can think of.

Plus at no point have I ever thought that the result was due to all the reading I did, watching friends do it, watching the videos, approaching it with confidence and not for a minute thinking that it would be anything other than difficult, but that I would do it.

No, I don;t think that. I put it down to luck, pure and simple.

As an analogy I think it works.

Then it sounds as though your gripe is with poorly planned antenatal classes LTOS, and maybe you need to vent with them, rather than at people who had a different birth experience to yours.

My antenatal classes covered all forms of pain relief and natural birth. It covered the side effects and increased risks with each type of drug. It covered episiotomy, forceps, ventouse. Not a huge amount on CSections, though I think this was partly because the teacher tried to gear provision to the needs of my particular group, and no one was expecting to have a CS, though of course that's rather short sighted as they aren't all planned! And we did a lot of relaxation and breathing exercises too which I found very useful. They did tell us labour would hurt (though tbh, do women really need to be told that?!). Not in gory detail, because it's all about balance isn't it, and to be honest if someone had told me beforehand that crowing feels like your fanjo being blowtorched it would have freaked me out! But no one ducked the issue that yes, it hurts, and is like no other pain on earth.

It seems increasingly that your issues are with your own antenatal experience LTOS. I'm sorry your classes were not helpful, but please don't bash women who had different experiences - it's not our fault!

The breast feeding analogy is not a true example by any means, as many women actually end up having to stop with no reward at the end.

The women i don't think it's tactless for are those who have got to the end of their labour by whatever means and have a wonderful bundle of joy in their arms. Why would anyone care how someone else got there as long as they got there themselves.

I agree that I have a huge problem with the advice given ante-natally, although it looks like the courses vary hugely around the place.

I did do both NCT and NHS and they both followed the same line.

I do also think that we should be more accepting of other people's choices, yes, but also other people's situations.

For many women what happens during birth is out of their hands, and due to what they have heard they end up feeling that they have let themselves down.

I have a friend who had placenta praevia (sp) and had an elcs (as you would) and she has always felt cheated, disappointed, saddened that she has missed out. She has a beautiful DS, if she had tried to give birth naturally she would likely have died, so why does she need to feel like that?

I accept that you are a happy advocate of the natural way, and that's fine. But the effect of the relentless "natural is best" message at the moment is a lot of very very upset and disappointed women, who genuinely feel that they have missed out in some way. I suppose I am railing against you as you are the most vocal exponent on this thread (now that kathy has gone!) but I do think it's sad that this is so often the outcome. I also have a feeling that it contributes to PND (having high expectations and then not being able to meet them) but that is just my feeling based on my friends and probably something for another thread.

Anyways I'm off to bed now, will catch up tomorrow

But you keep missing the fundamental point LTOS that nowhere have I said I am an exponent of 'natural is best'!! Kathy was. She had quite strong views about how other women should have their babies. I don't. I just had strong views about how I wanted mine. And I am allowed to have those views and my reasons!

What I find so ironic, LTOS, is that in attitude you are closer to Kathy, even though your views are polar opposite - because like her, you keep making judgements about other women's births, and attaching all kinds of things to other people's posts that they haven't said.

I repeat, I talked about MY birth, and my reasons for my views on pain relief. I also know some people in RL with similar views to mine. But I am well aware that other people have their own experiences, and that's fine!