AIBU - to be really pissed off that epidurals are being restricted?

[christmasmum]

Was just reading an article in Mother and Baby magazine saying that epidurals are classed as an 'abnormal birth' and that they should be restricted in the future to avoid women having caesareans.

What is this all about? Why should women not be free to make their own decision on pain relief, while being aware of the risks involved in every form of pain relief? And is it not the case that women having diffcult births in the first place are more likely to BOTH have an epidural AND end up having a c-section anyway??

Before giving birth to my DD I bought into all the information from the NCT, books and magazines etc and was determined to go for a 'natural' birth. I ended up being induced and despite being told by every woman I have ever spoken to who has been induced, that I should have an epidural the midwife advised me that I would not need one. After 10 hours of intense contractions and finding out I was a huge 2cm dilated I decided enough was enough and had an epidural.

I was instantly relaxed and started to actually enjoy the process, 2 1/2 hours later (despite the consultant arriving to prep me for a c-section) I found out I was fully dilated and delivered my wee girl after 5 minutes of pushing to a room that was full of people laughing and singing Christmas carols.

I obviously only have my own experience to go by but I am absolutely convinced that the relaxing effect of being out pain helped me deliver my baby naturally.

What is this pressure on women to be in pain and suffering to be 'real women'. And why is that every new Dad I've spoken to with wives who did not have pain releif seem so proud of them? Is this just another example of male oppression of women? Even subliminally??

AAGGGHHHHH. Rant over.

'No - it's not a 'shared experience', it's a tired old cliche which is always being trotted out about pain relief in childbirth - it adds nothing to the argument.'

Then it's a damn good thing I wasn't spoiling for a bloody argument.

I wanted pain relief, others don't. I've never said anything on this thread about those who do without it being idiots so if you're going to read that into random comments, go to it.

To defend Halia, kathy did say the things that had wound her up so much.

To defend myself, i would say that it is not tactful to talk about wonderful orgasmic births to women who have not achievd that. I was very lucky in that I had no trouble BF, it went like a dream, was very easy and pain free. Piece of piss. But I know that many many women have real problems establishing BF, not because they haven't "studied" it properly, or because they are not giving it their best, but because for a lot of women it just isn't easy and is a very painful and distressing time. So I don't swan around the place banging on about my experince.

You say "Talk about having a 'good' birth and you get accused of being smug and tactless." and that women are also expected not to talk about bad experiences and follow your comment up with a handy . However my experience of ante-natal classes with both NCT and NHS concentrated entirely on good news natural birth stories, so your assertion that they are not talked about it simply wrong. They are talked about, IME the bad natural birth stories are not. Presumably as the natural birth advocates are scared of putting people off.

I think women should educate themselves and then demand (and receive) whatever assistance/lack of assistance/drugs they personally want and I think the facilities should be made available to provide this.

Personally I am a hippy freak hypnobirther who didn't want anyone bloody touching me unless absolutely necessary.

If the hypno stuff hadn't worked however, you bet your arse I would have wanted the drugs and would have expected them to be available to me.

It is another one of those things that seems to split people right down the middle when really, a middle road is the way forward.

I haven't read all the threads, but one thing that does annoy me slightly is the fact that the only acceptable birth story in mainstream mummy life is a horrific one. If you happen to have had an easy ride you are accused of being smug if you talk about it.

But any population of mothers is going to include women who have had bad birth experiences. So what you are saying, effectively, is that anyone who has had a good birth experience must never mention it (unless she is in private with a close group of hand-picked listeners, presumably). I'm sorry, but this won't wash.

Women are entitled to hear about the bad stories and the good ones. So long as people (of all stripes) express themselves tactfully, there just shouldn't be a problem.

I, for one, won't stop telling women on here that I had a good birth experience. I think it's important that that point is made - that such a thing is possible.

If you never want to hear about good birth experiences then you're going to have to go to a closed forum.

am still waiting to see some evidence/links as to this new policy of restricting epidurals

anyomore than tehy are restricted now with the constraints of availibility of an anesthgatists etc

also , why it is being discussed as though it is epidural or nothing

there are other pain relief options that can be given by a MW , without waiting for an anesthatist

i

For example (and I hope this won't seem manipulative and emotional), my beloved mother died of lung cancer last year after smoking heavily for 40 years. It was the shittest experience of my life (ongoing).

I read regularly on here how much people are disgusted by smokers, how they think smokers shouldn't be entitled to NHS treatment, how lung cancer is a tremendously painful way to die, etc.

I don't want to read this stuff, but it never occurs to me to tell people they mustn't post it because it upsets me.

LTOS, I agree with you. The NCT classes I attended in particular were predominantly focused on natural childbirth and what a wonderful experience it is.

I actually wish I hadn't gone to them in some ways for the basic reason that if I hadn't I would not have any expectations of child birth. Now I am dreading being induced because I was told there would be a higher risk of having epidural and subsequently c-section. I know it is not logical. I now have a romantic vision of what childbirth is all about which is not a reality for some people.

The thing I have to keep on telling myself is that in 10 years time no-one will ask me whether I did it with or without pain relief and I doubt anyone will really care.

"I think that when it comes to improving women's experience of labour, the overwhelming focus on epidurals as the ultimate answer to all issues surrounding pain is not a good thing.

Actually I very much agree with that statement, BUT until all other things in labour are equal (i.e one to one support during labour, birthing pools on demand etc) epidurals are going to be the answer for most people.

"I had very good reasons for not wanting pain relief that were mainly to do with trying to protect my health and the health of my babies."

However I think this is a little insulting to the women who did choose pain relief, MOST women want to protect their health and their babies health but pain does tend to be all encompassing.

I actually think it's good to hear both sides of the labour spectrum, we need people who had bad labours to tell us so we can, if possible, find ways to avoid the problems they had. We need to hear good labours to give us some hope.

AliGrylls I think the best way to approach it is with an open mind - be open to having a go at natural birth, be open to being induced if that is necessary, be open to having an epi and a c-section if it comes down to it.

This worked for me, I was fortunate enough to have a best case, but I would not have beaten myself up if we had ended up with an emergency c-section either.

oh, I meant to say I was shouting for my epidural...when the team in green came with a list of questions to ask & be answered, my waters broke & off they went to help someone else.

A mum I was talking to the next day told me she'd had an epidural & I was very pleased for her, her baby was about 9lb with a big round head, whilst mine was 6lb, with a tiny little head

Still, big head, small hole - the HV's need to get the message that childbirth is painful. So many of my friends have been stunned at how painful it is.

Libra - I think you are taking some of this too personally and you just need to accept that other women's decisions about their birth are not a judgement on yours.

If a woman decides that she won't have particlar types of pain relief eg, pethidine, epidural, because she doesn't want to expose her baby to side effects or increased risk of intervention, then why can't you just accept that? It isn't insulting of them to think that - they've just made their own decision.

And IME, those reasons are precisely why many women feel strongly about labour being different from other types of pain, and why they feel strongly that they want to do without certain forms of pain relief. I didn't go without pethidine and epidural because I like pain - I don't!- but because I didn't want my baby to be possibly born very sleepy and have feeding difficulties, and neither did I want to risk further intervention through having an epidural and being unable to feel anything. Most women I know who made the same choice as me feel the same.

I think some people on this thread are being very judgemental. If other women want to choose various forms of pain relief, I wouldn't tell them not to, or question their reasons why. I wouldn't dream of questioning their judgement. So why is it insulting if a woman who goes without pain relief gives her reasons why?

*sighs again.

I didn't have any pain relief (and didn't need any) until I got to 8cm and went to the hospital at which point they decided to give me an emcs. IF the presentation had been normal the plan was to continue with G&A only. So I am one of the ones who had an easy labour. Unless you count paracetamol, tea and haribo as effective pain relief.

I have no problem with women deciding they don't wont pain relief (see above: me) . But some women who decide they don't want pain relief are not able to cope with the pain THAT doesn't mean they are not thinking about the health of their babies.

Erm.... no one said it means they aren't thinking that libra. I have never met a woman who doesn't care about the health of her baby! You are describing women who care about the health of their babies and decide to opt for pain relief. There are many of them. Why do you pick on women who make the choice not to have pain relief and say that they are insulting others?? I really don't get it. Seems very judgemental to me.

Ah PW I was talking about tact in real life, not on here! of course people can say whatever they want on here, and I believe they do

However in RL I do think it tactless when women are relating dreadful things that have happened the previous week and someone helpfully says "oh it was easy for me, I wonder what happened with you", or as I mentioned only giving the good news stories at ante-natal classes.

I wouldn't dream of ranting on at people in RL like I do on here

(As ever I am happy to note that we are all actually more or less in agreement...)

"So why is it insulting if a woman who goes without pain relief gives her reasons why? "

because sometimes - and this is something I heard in RL at an NCT class - those women say thigns like "I had a natural pain free birth because I wanted to put my baby first, and after all its only a little bit of pain"

If you honestly can't see why that statement implies all sorts of judgments about those of us who DID chose to have pain relief then I'm not sure how to explain it to you.

I've no problem with people saying "my birth went really well" or "my birth wasn't so good" but details should pretty much be saved for when you are ASKED for them.

Well, halia, save your judgement for the people who are actually saying things like that, not people on this thread. Because no one on here is saying it.

Thanks Len, it was/is crap.

LTOS - righto, I see. I'm trying to think what I would do IRL. If someone was telling me about their awful birth I don't think I would say 'oh mine were fine'. But if I were just shooting the breeze about birth with a bunch of women and no one had said 'mine was fucking terrible' (perhaps because they hadn't yet had the chance to say it), I might well say 'I found it fine, even a bit enjoyable'. I think it would be a bit harsh to regard me as smug for that.

Oooh great post halia.

And ROFL @ violet's "nd IME, those reasons are precisely why many women feel strongly about labour being different from other types of pain, "

My pain was different from other types of pain. It was 6 trillion times worse than any other pain I have ever experienced, and I have experienced a lot of pain.

If someone had given me a noose I would happily have used it. As it was I was making my way to the wall to knock myself out. Anything anything to make it just stop.

Halia's post really sums it up re subtext of judgement.

Well interesting that you find other women's birth experiences so hilarious LTOS. And you think you're not being judgemental. If I were to stoop to your level I'd make a few cheap shots about your birth choices. Thankfully I can't be bothered!

Yes, those were my reasons for not wanting particular forms of pain relief - same as thousands of other women. And yeap - labour hurts like fuck - I wanted someone to shoot me! - so at least we're in agreement about one thing.

What was wrong with my birth choices?

I am not laughing at you, I am laughing at the idea that there are fundamental differences in people's physiology and mental strength that makes such a vast difference to how they experience the same pain.

I wanted to die, someone else would have breathed through it. Oh silly me if only I was a better person.

Did you really want someone to shoot you violet? If someone had said "OK knock yourself unconscious" you would really have done it? I would. Just goes to show how much better you are than me.

My point being, you have no idea of the pain I was experiencing.

But I did it wrong. Otherwise I would have managed and coped. The reason I didn't and wanted to knock myself out was what? I didn't care about drugging my baby? I am selfish? I am weak? What then?

LovelyTinOfSpam "I am laughing at the idea that there are fundamental differences in people's physiology and mental strength"

You don't think there are?

LTOS - you seem hell bent on trying to get me to make a judgement about you. So that you'll then be able to point your finger, jump up and down at all those nasty women judging you!!

I wouldn't dream of making a judgement about YOUR choice for YOUR birth. And no, I have no idea of the pain you experienced. Just as you have no idea of mine.

All I know is that I reached the point where I wanted to die. And that crowning feels like being ripped limb to limb! But that was my experience. Other people have their own.

Yes, but I resent the implication that women who use pain relief during labour are lacking, when that assertion is made by people who have no way of knowing how much pain the person who opted for pain relief was actually in.

Of course it may be true that the women who opt for pain relief have low pain threasholds and are mentally weak, that certainly is a possibility. However that's not a general assumption that it's fair to make, really, is it. As no-one can really know how much pain the women in question are actually experiencing.