AIBU - to be really pissed off that epidurals are being restricted?

[christmasmum]

Was just reading an article in Mother and Baby magazine saying that epidurals are classed as an 'abnormal birth' and that they should be restricted in the future to avoid women having caesareans.

What is this all about? Why should women not be free to make their own decision on pain relief, while being aware of the risks involved in every form of pain relief? And is it not the case that women having diffcult births in the first place are more likely to BOTH have an epidural AND end up having a c-section anyway??

Before giving birth to my DD I bought into all the information from the NCT, books and magazines etc and was determined to go for a 'natural' birth. I ended up being induced and despite being told by every woman I have ever spoken to who has been induced, that I should have an epidural the midwife advised me that I would not need one. After 10 hours of intense contractions and finding out I was a huge 2cm dilated I decided enough was enough and had an epidural.

I was instantly relaxed and started to actually enjoy the process, 2 1/2 hours later (despite the consultant arriving to prep me for a c-section) I found out I was fully dilated and delivered my wee girl after 5 minutes of pushing to a room that was full of people laughing and singing Christmas carols.

I obviously only have my own experience to go by but I am absolutely convinced that the relaxing effect of being out pain helped me deliver my baby naturally.

What is this pressure on women to be in pain and suffering to be 'real women'. And why is that every new Dad I've spoken to with wives who did not have pain releif seem so proud of them? Is this just another example of male oppression of women? Even subliminally??

AAGGGHHHHH. Rant over.

LTOS, I hear you (sorry for Springer-language) and I absolutely accept your point about psychological trauma and fear of drug-free (can't think of more neutral language) births being 'pushed'.

Womble, I had two births without drugs, and I felt absolutely brilliant after both of them. They were hugely empowering and a real ego boost. Am I not allowed to say that? It represents the truth of my experience.

It might be the case that some women on here don't want to hear the truth about horribly painful births

BUT

it's also the truth that some women on here seem to want to avenge their traumatic birth experiences by penalising those who have non-traumatic births.

violethill

It is not my issues...it is what people have said on this thread.

You said

"For many women, the experience of labour is not the same as other types of pain. It is something they feel differently about, they want to labour naturally, and they find it extremelu empowering. That's their right. If you choose to go for a painfree birth, that's your choice too.
But you can't deny other women their right to feel empowered through natural birth."

I take it you didn't have an epidural or c section......

People who have natural births and little pain relief are not empowered they are just lucky that their babies birth has been straightforward. I don't think they would have gone through a c-section with gas and air. Of course pain relief should not be compulsory.. people should have a choice of whatever pain relief is available and should not be critcised for making a different choice.

Whilst being relaxed can help the birth process at the end of the day there is not much choice involved...either the baby will come out naturally or medical intervention will be needed.

Policy, you put things so clearly!!

That's exactly it. Some women do seem to not allow others to say 'Actually, my birth was really empowering'. I felt like that with my first. Very painful, very long, but I felt so empowered by giving birth naturally. That's the truth. Why should I not be allowed to say that?

policy... no you are most definately not wrong to say how empowered you felt. I have had 2 very different births. The 1st went horribly wrong and i had an epidural which was against everything i had planned. It traumatised me so much that i requested epidural prior to even going into labour. It went that fast however that i experienced a natural birth. I have to say looking back i am soooo glad that i have experienced a natural birth and it did honestly give me an ego burst like you. There is nothing on this earth like it... i went around for days telling everyone that i got to " 9cm on fresh air"! Probably did their heads in tbh!!

However, it does not change my views on that the money spent on creating a cosy nurse led unit (that basically only caters for low risk labours) should be spent on creating a CLU that is equally as wonderful. At the end of the day you can still get your natural birth their, but us who need intervention just get the same standard of care.

policywonk -

"it's also the truth that some women on here seem to want to avenge their traumatic birth experiences by penalising those who have non-traumatic births."

Do you mean me..I don't want to avenge anyone. I just want people to be able to choose an epidural if they need one without being told they are cowards unable to cope with pain.

I also want people who have already had an emergency c/section to be offered the choice of an elective c sect or VBAC second time round and not be forced to try a VBAC. (I was given the elective c sect without a fight but I don't know if this is always the case)

happywomble - I have experienced just about everything actually!

1st birth - natural birth, MLU

2nd birth - CS under epidural, prem baby in NICU for weeks

3rd birth - VBAC, natural, but in hospital due to being 'high risk'.

First one was most painful by far, but an amazingly empowering experience, second was pretty much pain free but scary because my baby could have died, 3rd one was relatively straightforward.

I still don't understand why you are so antagonsitic to me saying that my first birth experience was hugely empowering!

happywomble - if someone has told you you're a coward for having an epidural, then have this out with them personally. Don't accuse people on here, because no one has said it!

womble, nobody who asks for an epidural should be told that she's a coward - that's barbaric.

FWIW, I've had my mind changed by this thread a bit - I can see the case for epidurals on demand much more clearly now.

I just think that this notion of closing MLUs is wrong-headed. You will lose a lot of midwives that way, and it seems to me that's the last thing any of us want.

LTOS - Thank you. I'm only 8 weeks. Saw midwife today and begged for CS this time she said 'We don't do CS so that people can avoid pain during birth, giving birth always involves pain'

Thanks for that I thought.

I think, and forgive me if this doesn't come across correctly, that if women have experiences they feel are 'horrific' then they feel (or at least I do), baffled, bitter and failures when we then hear of women who felt 'empowered'. In my case it makes me think I'm not a coper, or that I did something wrong etc.

Now, obviously those women have had the experience they had and should be allowed to shout about it just as much as those of us who felt we had an awful time. But couldn't we solve all this by recognising that the experiences are different with different levels of pain depending on how the baby is lying etc, rather than thinking that some women are superior from having no pain relief and others are weak from having epis?

As happywomble says, no one is going to go through a CS with only G& A surely?

Hope that made sense.

policy... I don't actually think you will lose a lot of midwives, they will simply move to the hospitals. Some to private practise, but most to the hospitals.

I hear what you say, worriedunfortunately, but you know, the thing that strikes me, is that all the people on this thread who have mentioned 'not coping', 'being a coward' etc are the women who had the interventions,not the women who didn't! Do you not see the irony! Obviously that idea has come from somewhere, but I think it's really misplaced to blame the women who gave birth without drugs.

All the women i know who had natural births and were on a high about it were just enjoying feeling wonderful about their own experience - not worrying about anyone elses!

I don't think that MLUs should be closed btw. Hats off to you stoic types that both wanted and felt empowered by natural childbirth.

But what worries me is the idea of these MLUs being pushed onto women who really don't want that sort of experience. Having labour without any form of pain relief through no choice of their own.

It's quite barbaric, actually.

But I think we are all saying the same thing really - that we should all have the dignity of choice.

Violethill - very true. I think a lot of it (certainly in my case) was feeling 'looked down on' for not doing it naturally, quite possibly a chip on my own shoulder.

Although I have a sneaking suspicion it was partly caused by NCT classes and reading lots of literature beforehand that made me feel I should do it without pain relief.

You're right though, we are all on the same side I think - choice is best during birth obviously

What's wrong with Harpenden?

violethill..I am glad you were happy with your first birth experience!

I don't mind that you felt empowered.

your second experience sounds scary..am glad your baby was alright.

It is normally best if one can have a natural birth without feeling you have to have an epidural.

However for some of us this isn't possible and so people who have had natural births need to be sensitive to the fact that some people are not able to have a natural birth with little pain relief.

I don't personally mind that I had 2 c/sects as for me the only thing that mattered was that my babies and I survived the birth. The traumatic thing for me was not the c/sections but the frightening experience I had of natural labour prior to the first c/section.

NCT is a strange beast. People either seem to love it or hate it.

I loved the focus on breating and relaxation, and found it incredibly helpful. But I know a lot of people don't find it helpful. It's not cheap either, so if it's not your thing, then don't bother with it!

WU - insist on your right to pain relief. The inflexibility and dogma can be worked around, honestly.

I think it was kathy who put the boot in about women who require pain relief being inadequate. And although she was obviously a loon extreme person, the way ante-natal classes etc are conducted and constructed do give the impression of natural birth with as little pain relief as possible being the thing to aim for. So a lot of women feel, when they have to have pain relief/interventions etc, that they have let themselves down.

So when people who had satisfying natural births evangelise about it, they feel defensive, and understandably so. Not that people shouldn't say "I had a natural birth and it was great" it's the subtext of "everyone should do it like this", whether that subtext is there or not. It is an emotive subject and women who don't give birth naturally/pain free are on the whole made to feel defensive about it, due to the sheer heft of the natural birth lobby in this country.

worried what your midwife told you sounds very harsh and unhelpful. I'm sorry that is the response you got. Do you really want a CS?

I agree with what you say to a large extent. LTOS. I would add though, that the antenatal teaching does need to include honest and open information about the side effects and increased risks associated with different forms of pain relief. That's only right. I think sometimes people can be a little over sensitive about that. It is a fact that forms of pain relief can increase the risks in certain ways, and it would be wrong to pretend they don't.

Well, in case anyone gives a flying wotsit what I think - as someone who had good birth experiences, I do not for a minute judge those who have full-on medicalised births with all the trimmings. I was extremely lucky to have good births, and I'm just grateful for my good fortune.

I wonder whether the natural birth movement has moved ahead of NHS capacity in this country - maybe that's one of the problems? Low-intervention births require sympathetic care, unhurried midwives (with no sadistic bitches), expansive and comfortable surroundings, etc. (And of course, even with all these things, non-interventionist births simply won't be possible for a lot of women.)

I sympathise with the aims of the natural birth movement, in so far as it wants women who choose to do so to experience independent birth - but myabe its advance is not compatible with a resource-strapped NHS. Not saying it should be rolled back, but maybe the time has come to concentrate resources on CLUs until these horror stories stop.

I could write about this for ages, but shall try to go for the concise approach...

I have had epidurals for both my births. I was very well prepared both times but I do not seem, for numerous reasons, to labour effectively. The first time I had the epi 20 hours in when I was screaming and out of control after hours of begging, and I ended up with ventouse and a baby in extreme distress. The second time I had the epi on the midwives recommendation after about 4 hours of G&A labour, only ten minutes after asking for it. The whole experience was fabulous, I dilated quickly with no synto and I pushed DD out in 50 mins with no extra help.

So, I am hugely in favour of epidurals and I believe that everyone should have the right to them, when they ask for them. I think the standard delaying tactic is awful...

True very true violet.

But they don't mention tearing, episiotomies, loss of sexual function, pelvic floor knackeredness etc as a possibles/side effects of natural birth either do they?

"People who have natural births and little pain relief are not empowered they are just lucky that their babies birth has been straightforward."

I have never had a straightforward labour and both my last two pregnancies were complicated. I'd still refute the idea that we are all just carried on the tides of fate when it comes to what happens in our labours. I can't accept this is always true (although I accept it sometimes is). There is very good evidence that simply choosing a different birth environment and birth partner can impact on what happens in our labours. Did you know that in the NICE guidelines on C-section it recommends that all women should be told that having a female birth partner significantly reduces your risk of a c-section? Doesn't that one simple fact pull you up short?

Had I not had bloody brilliant support in my own home from not just my midwife, but also from a very good friend and from my partner, I think that an epidural would have been almost unavoidable in my third labour, which was very long and difficult. And then - who knows how that labour might have ended? My baby was back to back for very much of that labour. God knows if I would have got him out after spending hours exhausted and immobilised on a bed. Having those people with me wasn't good luck - it was good planning. I refute the idea that there is never a choice - because I feel for me that there was, but it involved me having to stick my neck right out and make a provision for myself outside of the existing system. I appreciate that this is not possible for everyone, but in my case it was an option, and a choice I made for myself. It was tough too; I agonised over the decision to have my babies at home, because of my gestational diabetes and because of the size of my babies. I came away from those births feeling hugely empowered.

"Whilst being relaxed can help the birth process at the end of the day there is not much choice involved...either the baby will come out naturally or medical intervention will be needed."

If the research shows that there are some things we can do as individuals to reduce the likelyhood of needing medical help to birth our babies, then it doesn't make sense to argue that we have no meaningful choices in childbirth. We do have choice. We might choose an epidural and spend our labours in bed. We might mobilise throughout labour and work with our bodies to help our babies be born.

I do appreciate that sometimes it's difficult to realise these choices. I wasn't able to realise my choices in my first birth because I didn't have the confidence to ask for what I wanted in labour (which was good support and an active birth). I was swept along on the tide of it all. I didn't know enough about the system I was going into to know how to get the best out of it. I think this is true of many people - we do as we're told until we see that the experts don't always know what's right for us and therefore compliance isn't always the best option.

Er, DS actually. Perhaps the epi addled my brain...

Good post tin of spam

I would suggest that those who had wonderful natural births evangelise with those who have had the same experience.

I got pregnant very easily with my children. I don't go around saying to my friends who took months to conceive that getting pregnant was a breeze as this would be completely insensitive. Obviously I was lucky to fall pregnant easily and there was no skill involved. People who have natural births with harps playing and candles are also lucky. Before going on about how stoical you are in surviving the pain etc. please try and imagine how you would feel if your birth experience had been less straightforward and you had had to resort to an epidural emergency c/section after days of labour etc.. would you really want to hear people going on about their straightforward natural birth and how well they did?

At the end of the day all that matters is that mother and child are healthy.