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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

School Punishments

145 replies

Clydesdale · 01/06/2009 11:26

Hi all

My year 1 DS drew on a wall during class supervised by a cover teacher on the monday before half term. his punishment was to clean the wall and miss both breaks and lunchplay for the rest of the week. during these breaks he was to stand facing the wall in the playground.

i went mad when i found out! 1 - i was not informed, 2- i felt this was incredibly extreme punishment, 3- how did he get to draw so much in the first place?

Am i so unreasonable to feel that missing breaks and lunch play for a whole week is totally over the top? I know from my other half who is in the forces that facing the wall is a form of sensory deprivation used by the forces prior to interrogation! To do this for a whole week infornt of the whole school seems bullying to me

I am in the process of writing to the school Head, govenor and LEA and would like to see others opinons on this!

OP posts:

islandofsodor · 01/06/2009 14:50

The absolute highest standard for me is when I am chaperoning in the theatre. The rules and regs I have to follow would amaze some (ane they amaze the children too who are often not prepared for the level of supervision they have to be under.)

I would be really interested to know the outcome of the OP's meeting.

Original poster

Clydesdale · 01/06/2009 15:13

Gerontius - I am fully in favour of disciplining my ds, in fact I am seen to be a strict parent!! - however I feel that this was too long a punishment by the school - an overreacting if you like. As was pointed out in an earlier post - where do they go from here if this is the level of sanction for just drawing on a wall.

The info was not just from my ds but also from his teacher (who was not present that day). I found out that he had drawn on a wall, cleaned it and one day of missed breaks from the 'smiley' chart they all get which reports on behavious during the day. However, I was not informed by the school that it would be a whole week of missed breaks. I only found out after asking his teacher following another day of missed breaks!

OP posts:

gerontius · 01/06/2009 15:15

We all agree that a week was too long. However, the general consensus seems to be that he shouldn't have had to stand next to the wall at all, which I don't agree with.

Original poster

Clydesdale · 02/06/2009 11:25

Just back from meeting with the HM. She agreed that, with hindsight, I should have been informed. Apparently they have never had a case of graffitti in the school before and may have over-reacted.

They have agreed to keep parents more informed, especially if stopping of breaks for more than 1 day is involved. An area outside the staff room is going to be used more alongside the use if the wall.

OP posts:

treedelivery · 02/06/2009 11:33

Oooo.

How do you feel?

Tamarto · 02/06/2009 11:37

'May have over reacted'

Never had graffitti in the school before.

Hmm, seems a bit suspect to me.

I don't think i'd have been happy with that outcome.

islandofsodor · 02/06/2009 11:44

I would hardly call a 5 year old drawing on the wall grafitti.

My dd drew on the floor in balck marker pen in Year 1 during carpet time. She was severley told off about it, I was called into school and we went up the wall with her. But it is the kind of things that very young children do.

You just have to let them know that it is unacceptible and they will learn. I think the school definately over reacted.

We had a 7 year old draw on the carpet once thinking about it. We spoke to her and her mum about it about how you had to take care of school property etc. She ended up more upset by the fact that we were dispointed in her.

treedelivery · 02/06/2009 11:45

Graffitti?

Do 5yo do graffitti? Did he 'tag' it and use spray paints? What did her actually do to the wall - I was imagining a bit of a doodle.

Hmmm......

Tamarto · 02/06/2009 11:46

I really can't believe that the school has never had a child draw on the wall/floor/desk before.

LightShinesInTheDarkness · 02/06/2009 11:47

I still find it hard to accept that standing facing a wall is used in schools today. Did you query that part of the punishment with her?

SomeGuy · 02/06/2009 11:50

All punishment is humiliating, the point is so they don't do it again!

LightShinesInTheDarkness · 02/06/2009 12:26

But is humiliation actually necessary to stop kids doing a 'bad thing' the next time?

islandofsodor · 02/06/2009 12:28

The humiliation is being found out, made to clean up and miss playtime. The other children would be aware and be saying x did this.

This punishment is unreasonable not so much in the huiliation but the length and unreasonbalness. Punishments for that age child have to be immediate or they lose their effrectivness.

Nahui · 02/06/2009 12:36

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

Nahui · 02/06/2009 12:39

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

LightShinesInTheDarkness · 02/06/2009 13:06

Nahui - I am in no way suggesting that being made to stand facing a wall is torture etc.

I am merely suggesting that I feel as if being made to stand facing a wall (for however long) is humiliating for a child of 5, and I queried whether that humiliation is useful in preventing unwanted behaviour.

Thats all - no 'adult' connotations.

halia · 02/06/2009 13:11

IMO the cleaning of the wall (natural consequences), and possibly the writing of a letter/drawing of a picture to say sorry (on paper!) during a breaktime would be a suitable punishment.

I would have gone for just cleaning the wall, simple and straightforward for a 5 yr old to understand- you make mess you have to clean it up and that means you miss out on fun stuff

I don't have a problem with being made to take timeout and face the wall during class,in certain circumstances (messing about and distracting others,for example).
I think its the right discipline for messing about that either invovles getting all wound up - in which case its a calm down/ lack of distrction time or messing about and making other kids laugh/get distracted - prevents behaviuor

BUT being made to stand facing the wall in the playground smacks of ritual humiliation,
Yes it does, there is a difference between a recognised 'time out' zone in a classroom and the playground
My preschool DS had to go inside for timeout before half term because he deliberatly poured water onto another child. (he thinks its funny). That was fine by me as was the apology he had to give. However if he had been made to stand facing a wall, outside in full view of all the kids I woudl have been VERY angry.

Something I try and do is not only link 'punishment' consequences to behaviuors (cleaning the wall off) but also privilages. SO if DS drew on the wall at home he would a) have to clean it and b) not be allowed pens for the rest of the day/week whatever felt appropriate.

I said to his teacher regarding the water incident that if it happened again I'd like them to do timeout again and ban him from using the watertable for a week - not in a nasty way just very straightforward - "there are rules for using the water table. You broke them twice so you can't use it for a week until we are sure you won't do it again."

I also believe in working out why the kids did it - most kids see big walls as great drawing opportunitites rather than forbidden surfaces! if Ds goes through a phase of this type of thing I try and supply LARGE rolls of paper outside where he isn't restricted or chalks on pavements/outside walls.

So If I had been the teacher
a) clean wall off and miss playtime
b) talk about what can be drawn on with the kid and ask them to come up with a picture / letter that explains what we can draw on
c) look into whether there is anywhere outside for kids to draw with chalks
d) initiate a class wide outside painting project - its the right time of year for it as well

Stayingsunnygirl · 02/06/2009 13:18

Does your ds's school have 'Golden Time', Clydesdale? That is, some free time at the end of either the day or the week, when children can choose an activity. At my dses' primary schools, loss of all or part of Golden Time has often been part of a punishment, and would have been far more appropriate in this situation than what happened (apart from the clearing up, obviously).

I would say that a punishment should deter, and it is only going to deter if it is boring or unpleasant in some way. But it should also allow for the idea of reparation and for the chance to reflect on one's misdeeds and to understand why the behaviour was unacceptable. It's a balancing act.

CarmenSanDiego · 02/06/2009 17:43

I feel so sad for a 5yo having to go through this and can't see how the school can think it appropriate. A FIVE year old ffs. By second break, let alone day 2, he will have forgottenwhy he is singled out at playtime. A break time feels like forever for a child this age. I have a 5yo and I know she'd be coming home in tears if this happened, every day for a week

Clean the wall, stern talking to if you must, but not this ridiculous, drawn out punishment. Not appropriate for a 5yo and enough to make him dread school altogether.

YANBU I'd be livid and likely withdraw him for the week or possibly permanently if they show such little understanding of child development and age appropriate discipline.

Lucia39 · 02/06/2009 17:52

Why is making a child face the wall "humiliation"?

I don't know the details so can't comment - maybe he drew/wrote something rude/offensive - maybe he's done it before and been warned. I don't agree that every single break for a week should be used as punishment but it certainly won't harm him to miss a couple.

However, I'm at a loss to understand why people are so incensed that he was made to stand "facing the wall".

edam · 02/06/2009 18:02

Clydesdale, did the headteacher explain why the class was so badly supervised that they didn't notice what your ds was up to? I'd be concerned that the cover supervisor wasn't really paying attention if s/he missed a child drawing on the wall - given the school's description of it as 'graffiti' sounds as if he was able to spend some time on it.

LightShinesInTheDarkness · 02/06/2009 19:37

Lucia 39 - I feel as if being made to stand facing a wall is humiliating, if its done in full view of all the school. I can't actually rationalise my feeling about it - which is why I am trying to have the debate on here!

Do you not think it is?

pointydog · 02/06/2009 19:54

I agree with points 1 and 2. Very extrme punishment and I would not be happy.

Re point 3, if my child had drawn on school property I would not be questioning why someone had not spotted him early and I would not be apportioning some of the blame to that person. Depending what was going on in the classroom at the time, it would be fairly easy for a child to draw on a wall unnoticed.

I would concentrate on what my child had done and how to precent it happening again rather than complaining about the person who didn't notice.

Stayingsunnygirl · 02/06/2009 20:29

Lucia - I suspect that the humiliation will have come from having to do this in full sight of all the other children in the playground, possibly with some of them making nasty comments as well.

scienceteacher · 02/06/2009 20:42

I think that is reasonable for the child to clean up the mess they made and reasonable for the school to not ask for your permission.

As for the other things, it depends on how your DS reacted to the punishment. It seems extreme to punish for one misdemeanour over several days. As a Christian teacher in a Christian school, we would make the crime spent after one punishment session. We would not bear a grudge and would basically 'forget' it. If the child did not appreciate where they went wrong and was resistant to the consequences, then the matter may go on longer than anyone would like.

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