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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to not allow my child to do a reading in church?

934 replies

GooseyLoosey · 30/03/2009 08:45

Dh and I are atheists. The dcs attend the local school which is C of E (although wholly state funded). There are no alternative non-C of E schools locally.

The school tends towards being very religious and there is a special Easter service in church for the school this week. Ds (5) has been given a reading to do at this service. It includes many "Praise God" and "God is good" type statements.

I don't wish to over react but getting ds to actively participate in an act of worship may be a step too far for me. AIBU to object and to consider telling them to get someone else to do this?

OP posts:
Original poster
GooseyLoosey · 30/03/2009 10:56

Sassybeast - I suspect the reason that they picked him (and the other child) was to do with their reading abilities and without any thought whatsoever about what they were asking him to read or what I might feel about it.

ruddynorah - read those links and actually they leave me feeling more uncomfortable about it than ever. The second one appears to say that God's law is that the "wages of sin is death" and therefore the death of his son was required to pay for our sins. Why? Why did the act of grace and forgiveness require the sacrifice of a child?

OP posts:
FAQinglovely · 30/03/2009 10:59

but being taught about religion (any religion of belief system) isn't the same as indoctrinating them into it.

KatyH · 30/03/2009 11:00

YANBU.

The lack of non-religious schools in the UK is pretty depressing if you ask me and (for once) Georgimama I find myself disagreeing with you. The OP has no realistic alternative and is trying to make the best of her lot. Sounds to me like she has been very tolerant of a less than ideal situation and I can see exactly why she would now draw the line.

Apart from anything, it would be a bit of a sham to have her ds say a reading that he has absolutely no belief in! As a christian I would rather have someone say a reading with a bit of conviction.

ruddynorah · 30/03/2009 11:00

they're just two sites. if you want info to help your son it's there for you. you're bound to find it alienating as you don't believe and don't want to. it's just information. and as a non believer you shouldn't find it uncomfortable. i don't but i understand it, perhaps having been brought up catholic on my maternal side and muslim and my paternal side helps.

Sassybeast · 30/03/2009 11:01

But GL - they are a religious school. Easter celebration will be a significant part of what they do. They shouldn't 'have' to think about the content of the reading if you haven't dicussed your beliefs with them. They would assume that unless told otherwise, you would be happy for your son to participate ?

georgimama · 30/03/2009 11:01

But have you ever actually pointed out to the school that you are an atheist and not happy about DS actively participating in acts of worship? If you haven't there is no reason why they would have given any thought to how you feel about it. If you have done so then they are out of order and need a reminder.

Jesus is God - he is God made man and came to earth in order to redeem us from our sins. It's not really "the sacrifice of a child."

georgimama · 30/03/2009 11:04

"If you didn't teach them about a God, they wouldn't believe in one."

Impossible to do, but that is of course the starting point of Descartes' Meditations, and he reached the conclusion that you would be led to belief in God.

He was quite odd though, as he lived in a bread oven for a while, and joined the army but didn't want to get up until midday.

slug · 30/03/2009 11:09

Just because Descarte came to that conclusion, does not mean it's true. He did live in a far more religious time.

Cosette · 30/03/2009 11:10

If your DS isn't comfortable doing it, then I think it's reasonable to decline. However he shouldn't use it as an excuse to get out of a school activity that everyone else has to go to.

How does your DS feel about being in the school nativity play? I think that whatever you decide then you need to be consistent. No reading should also mean no part in the play.

FAQinglovely · 30/03/2009 11:12

but surely someone somewhere along the line 1000's of years ago suddenly wondered "where did I come from" etc and so the idea of God was formed?? I mean - religion had to start somewhere didn't it??

Peachy · 30/03/2009 11:13

I think tehy'd believe in something, ot at least amny would. I certainly always felt I ahd a strong beleif in something despite an Athreist cildhood and schooling.

My experience is that I had the belief then searched for the format to define it; but I havea very wideranging many roads lead to God belief.

'Why did the act of grace and forgiveness require the sacrifice of a child? ' I think in order to understand that you have to believe in God's love forus- so great that hewould do anything- but also understand that to aChristiamn death is not the end; GOdwould obviously not actually lose his child during the crucifixion.

justaboutback · 30/03/2009 11:14

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

WynkenBlynkenandNod · 30/03/2009 11:17

I do see where you are coming from GooseyLoosey and am in a sort of similar situation . DD is now at a Church school which is fed into by about 5 other schools, a couple of them are also Church schools and the other 3 aren't. The school she was at previously wasn't a Church school but they did go off to the local church for Easter services and the local vicar comes for Harvest festival etc. DS is at another local primary which also isn't a Church School and will also be going for a Church service at Easter. There wasn't really any choice about her going to the Church school, it is what happens here, but to be honest it isn't actually any different to her previous school.

Initially I was quite taken aback when DD came home from school in Year 1 or 2 telling me all about the Creation (which resulted in me trying to explain Evolution and clearly failing miserably as she seems to think I believed that monkeys made the world for a bit !) but have learned over the years to take these opportunities to talk about what I do and don't believe, present different points of views and encourage her to try to decide for herself as much as possible. I've explained to her that deciding what you believe is a personal, ongoing process that often changes over time and she seems to have taken that on board in terms of what they are taught for RE and participation in Church services.

I probably would have been a bit taken aback to have had DD doing a reading in Church during reception but now we're further down the line it wouldn't worry me and I would do as Beetroot said, view it as a performance.

Original poster
GooseyLoosey · 30/03/2009 11:17

Georgi and Sassy - I did tell the head before he started that we were atheists and explained why I could not in all conscience return a form that said I would support the religious ethos of the school. I fully support its moral stance on issues and I tolerate its teaching of religion - I do not support it and will not pretend that I do.

However, it is not something I have brought up since. I do not want the dcs to have to wear stickers saying "atheist" like the vegetarians do at lunchtime. I don't want to make them stand out. But, and its a big but, I equally do not want them standing up in church affirming the existence of God.

Georgimama (out of genuine interest), you say "Jesus is God - he is God made man and came to earth in order to redeem us from our sins" - in what sense what Jesus then the son of God if they are infact the same entity and why was his death necessary, why couldn't forgiveness take place without a death?

OP posts:
FAQinglovely · 30/03/2009 11:19

ahh the Trinity - ok - who's gonna explain that one then

Original poster
GooseyLoosey · 30/03/2009 11:19

Just to clarify - ds is not in reception. He is 5 and in year 1.

OP posts:
salome64 · 30/03/2009 11:22

GM, Descartes actually proved that God didn't have to exist, he just bottled it at the last minute for himself.

Goosey, you can't make sense of it because its nonsense.

brettgirl2 · 30/03/2009 11:22

It does worry me that you are labelling your child. How do you know he is an athiest? He is 5 years old and children of that age assume what their parents tell them is correct. They question what they are told at a later stage.

Just because you are an athiest doesn't mean he will be - doesn't he have the right to explore other possibilities? It isn't like inheriting brown hair or blue eyes. Why not say to him 'I don't believe it, you need to find out about religion to decide whether or not you do'?

georgimama · 30/03/2009 11:23

Do you really expect me to answer that? If you really want to know, why not look it up? Google the Holy Trinity, for example. You must have heard of these concepts before, to be so certain they aren't true.

I don't know why his death was necessary (in terms of why forgiveness could not be effected without a sacrifice) - I'm not God. It's not something I'm prepared to speculate on, tbh.

brettgirl2 · 30/03/2009 11:23

God has three parts - the Father (overall creator) the Son (Jesus) and the Holy spirit (all around us).

I am an athiest btw.

FAQinglovely · 30/03/2009 11:25

ahh but then you've got the 3 in 1, 1 in 3 bit as well

georgimama · 30/03/2009 11:28

teh Holy Trinity

ruddynorah · 30/03/2009 11:28

some very basic googling of 'christ died forgiveness' gives you oodles to dig into. you are clearly interested in all this and have a lot of unanswered questions. none of these things are 'answerable' but there is lots to look at and analyse if you want to. most of which is above and beyond what a 5 year old requires.

georgimama · 30/03/2009 11:29

the death of Jesus

salome64 · 30/03/2009 11:29

what annoys me about the Christian god is that he was plenty around to dole out commandments etc way back when, but has been conspicuously absent for a couple of millennia. Think he got bored with us all?