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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to not allow my child to do a reading in church?

934 replies

GooseyLoosey · 30/03/2009 08:45

Dh and I are atheists. The dcs attend the local school which is C of E (although wholly state funded). There are no alternative non-C of E schools locally.

The school tends towards being very religious and there is a special Easter service in church for the school this week. Ds (5) has been given a reading to do at this service. It includes many "Praise God" and "God is good" type statements.

I don't wish to over react but getting ds to actively participate in an act of worship may be a step too far for me. AIBU to object and to consider telling them to get someone else to do this?

OP posts:
giantkatestacks · 30/03/2009 13:54

rofl BOF - I always feel like that...

MelanieLiv · 30/03/2009 13:54

My DD is at school in France where it is largely against the law for any form of religion to be taught at school. Marvellous system. When she comes back to the UK in 2 years or so, she's going to have to go to a CofE school and there'll be a lot of questions. Like - 'who's Jesus?' 'I thought Easter was about bunnies - not some guy being tortured to death' etc. I'm sort of looking forward to it.

salome64 · 30/03/2009 13:55

Ah, Miss BOF, pull up a seat and have a biccy. Excellent post, measured and sound.

MelanieLiv · 30/03/2009 13:55

I agree with bitoffun

BitOfFun · 30/03/2009 13:56

The squeaky wheel gets the most grease...

MillyR · 30/03/2009 13:56

I think the problem here stems from a focus on what you don't want your child to believe rather than on what you do want your child to believe.

I don't think it is enough just to teach your child about multiculturalism (Finn, Jesus) and so on. While that is useful and respectful, it doesn't give your child their own traditions and culture.

We don't have much Christianity in our house (the pretty props and stories but no church attendance and not really any God) but we have made sure we have a very rich cultural background to replace it with.

I think you need to feel more confident in what you are teaching your child at home, and their home culture. That is what gives you the strength to either let them do the talk but tell them it is untrue, or ignore the issue completely, or withdraw them.

I think this is a big issue to you because you are not being confident enough about it.

georgimama · 30/03/2009 13:56

Is it? So you get to define the terms of the debate now?

Cathpot asked what Christians would do about enforced atheism at schools. That's what I'd do.

The point is, we don't live in a secular society. We live in a society with firm Christian roots.

BoF I thought your post was scrumptious.

Cathpot · 30/03/2009 13:58

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying georgimama, that if I feel strongly that religion and education should be kept separate that I should choose a private education?

I am presuming that isn't what you mean or atheism, or at least the belief that state funded education should be secular, becomes a priviledge for the wealthy. That seems and odd point of view.

salome64 · 30/03/2009 13:59

GM, I dont think pointing out we are talking about state schools is trying to rule the thread.

and we do live in a secular society now. Whatever its roots.

giantkatestacks · 30/03/2009 14:00

I dont think we do live in a secular society - we just think we do...

MillyR · 30/03/2009 14:00

It is a weak analogy anyway. Christianity is not enforced in school; you can withdraw your child. You do not need to send them to a Private school; withdraw them from collective worship.

DumbledoresGirl · 30/03/2009 14:00

Georgimama, where on earth is GL supposed to conjour up the money for private education when she has already clearly stated that she does not have the funds for that? I know GL, where she lives, where her local school is, what her commitments are, and I doubt that even if the nearest alternative school was secular it would be a realistic option for her children. Anyway, my children attend a secular school and they still say grace before lunch (not that I object to this, nor to a Christian education had I been able to secure one for my children) so even a non-church school could pose problems for affirmed atheists.

Why do people persist in giving simplistic responses to a poster's predicament? Suggesting private education as an answer is just not helpful.

georgimama · 30/03/2009 14:01

Look, I'm not interested really in what other people do or don't do about their gripes with the state system. You asked what Christians would do and this Christian would educate privately.

The OP can withdraw her child from all religious worship, anyone can do that. If atheism is the state "religion" presumably the same rules would apply - withdraw the child from participation? If you don't want to educate privately, do that then. It's not hard.

salome64 · 30/03/2009 14:02

Interesting point GKH. I must mull.

stillstanding · 30/03/2009 14:03

BoF, your post was excellent.

Wish there was more reason in the world (especially from the atheists )

Original poster
GooseyLoosey · 30/03/2009 14:03

BOF - your view is similar to DH's - he thinks that the speaking will probably be good for him and the content is not so important. Thing is, it is important to me. If he was standing up reading The Little Mermaid, I would have no problems with that - it would not be assumed by anyone that he believed mermaids are real or that he was making a statement as to the existence or otherwise of mermaids.

Isn't there a difference though in standing in a place of worship and being required to individually undertake an act of worship? Isn't there something wrong with this if the child does not actually believe?

OP posts:
salome64 · 30/03/2009 14:04

I hardly think its a gripe, GM, to struggle with an issue like this. Thats a bit dismissive.

ruddynorah · 30/03/2009 14:05

i think most people would think awww cute 5 year old doing a reading. how very grown up of him. and not much more than that.

justaboutback · 30/03/2009 14:08

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

giantkatestacks · 30/03/2009 14:08

GL I think in all seriousness that children are exempt from the believing part as merely going through the motions in the CofE tradition is not enough.

Your dc wouldnt be 'undertaking an act of worship' he would just be undertaking an act iyswim.

I still think it would be better to stand aside for someone who would be really proud though.

salome64 · 30/03/2009 14:08

GL, I do understand your dilemma After all, we all try to instill in our children to concept of telling the truth, and then sometimes (out of expediency) we tell them not to. So, yes to society rituals like weddings etc where it mostly goes over their heads, but no to individual proclamations of belief where there is none.

MillyR · 30/03/2009 14:08

GL

Yes, there is a difference. The former is religious education and the latter is religious worship. He is not required to do the latter if you don't want him to.

Original poster
GooseyLoosey · 30/03/2009 14:09

Milly - interesting comment re thing being about what I want my child not to believe.

I had not really considered this. However, I don't think that I would object to my son believing in God but the fact is that he does not (he is too young to believe or not believe in anything on his own account but I think he leans towards what he can see evidence for at the moment). I do therefore object to him having to make statements predicated upon the assumption that this is what he believes in or will come to believe in when I actually hope that it is not.

OP posts:
georgimama · 30/03/2009 14:09

Well it is a bit of a storm in a teacup isn't it? The OP isn't struggling, she is a declared atheist. I don't understand the difficulty tbh.

If the OP doesn't want him to do the reading, he doesn't do it.

If she wants him to do the reading, she needs to talk to him about why some people believe this but she doesn't. Then all the reading is is a public speaking exercise.

If she has a long standing objection to her DS being involved in these kinds of activities, she needs to withdraw him from religious assemblies.

Where's the struggle?

DumbledoresGirl · 30/03/2009 14:09

GL is there anything else he could read? By which I mean, if the words did not mention God would it be ok in your mind for him to be speaking as part of a church service, or does any active participation upset you? If the latter, then I suppose you really should not be allowing him to even go to the church with the school (which could be quite a difficult stance to maintain while he attends a C of E school), but if the former, I would suggest you ring the school and see if an alternative reading could be arranged. Your point of view is valid imo, even if I don't necessarily agree with you.