To be annoyed that the teacher snapped at my DS

[Fairynufff]

DS loves ICT and has been partnered with a child who has aspergers. They have to share because there aren't enough computers. The child is obsessive about the equipment and my DS is basically allowed to type for him and then he gets upset if my son so much as clicks his finger on the mouse. My son (who is regarded as kind and patient) gets so frustrated because they never finish the tasks and the aspergers boy doesn't want my son's help or to listen to him.

Last week my son basically gave up. Sighed and turned to the side. The teacher told him off for "not helping" the other boy.

AIBU to be annoyed at the teacher?

It's clear that the "inclusion" statment means something different to everyone.

I think there needs to be some clear direction so everyone understands and are working towards achieving that goal?

I find it disgraceful that specialised provision isn't made for these children with such specific requirements (hope that's an acceptable phrase)... It makes you wonder if the resources are there to identify that children have certain requirements, why on earth aren't they following through and providing said resource??

God this is complicated isn't it? No wonder the kids are stuggling. What an impossible situation.

Well that makes a mockery of the teacher snapping at my son to "help him". This boy will not accept my son's help and wants to do it all himself. How can my son fulfil the teacher's request if the other child does not co-operate also?

"specific" is much better than "special"

Fairynuff, the teacher was at fault here. I dont think any is disputing that. THe other child and your ds certainly arent.

So - can I conclude that I am not overreacting to talk to the teacher on Monday?

Yes, you need to talk to the teacher.

I wouldnt be concerned about the telling off. I would just say that it is unfair that your child works every week with the other child as he is finding it hard to cope and doesnt want to get into trouble. Hopefully the teacher will then think of a different strategy but I expect they'll just go on to the next ameniable child.

Yes you should talk to the teacher. I'd also say that in this instance, in the absence of a diagnosis, she is probably treating the child as any other NT kid. For all you know, she might think that the boy will learn from your DS and not realise he potentially has ASD.

And I think you have been very gracious in the face of some quite aggressive posts - your OP was badly worded and it could well be my gorgeous nephew you're talking about and I would hate him to ever be called 'the aspergers boy'. Only he has a statement and also lots of friends

Thanks guys, I've learned a lot in the course of this thread...

I really wouldn't mind my son continuing as his partner if he was supported in working with the other boy rather than being snapped at.

Sorry meant to say: "And I think you have been very gracious in the face of some quite aggressive posts which I admire you for.

We've had this with dd, who is in general very eager to please and conscientious. She had the "naughty" boy sitting next to her, in the hope that he would behave better with a good role model, and that she wouldn't be as distractible as some other children. I suspect in the classroom setting that that works, but over time dd got quite stressed by his behavior. As there is no way she would tell the teacher, so they would have been unaware what she was thinking, we went in and had a little chat about it, and at the next rotation the boy moved on. As far as I am aware this child had no special needs - it is perfectly possible to behave badly without them!

ds on the other hand probably drives his class mates to distraction, as he finds it very difficult to keep still, and is generally a pain. He probably has some borderline special needs, but not enough for any assistance.

The school they went to in the UK had a behavioural unit, and two of my children's cousins have learning disabilities. We have talked to both of our children about differences, I think it is very useful to understand that not everyone ticks in the same way as you do, that it is not your fault if someone with a different brain wiring reacts in a way you don't expect, and what might work in the circumstances. These sort of skills and approaches are useful in general I think as part of learning to understand how the world works, and why people (both SN and NT) do the things they do. children like to make sense of the world, and lets face it most other people are a bit odd

spicemonster - thank you. And the teacher could not fail to know (I guess that's why the EdPsych has been in). I have also worked with other children with aspergers and they were a delight. This boy is too - he was lovely when he came over but I can understand why he annoys other children. I suspect there are other complications to his condition.

I have to be honest. I personally don't like inclusion - because on the whole (and I have worked in many many schools) I don't think it works as well as some of the wonderful 'special schools' I have seen. BUT I am committed to making my son treat others with kindness and compassion. That is what makes life worth living for all of us and if he is the best candidate to be partnered with this boy - it will have my full support.
As long as my son also receives the education he is also entitled to and is not knocked in the process...

When I taught a bright 12 yr old boy with quite severe Aspergers, I had no training whatsoever to deal with his problems with integrating the mainstream classroom. I certainly never expected any of the other kids to even try to deal with his angry outbursts, his refusal to co-operate with anyone, his occasional chair-throwing and throat-grabbing. He had a one-to-one TA whose main job was to make sure no-one got hurt. Woe betide us all if she was late or delayed at my after lunch lesson (one such episode prompted the chair-throwing). Understandably the other children found him very hard to deal with and actually wanted to avoid him most of the time as they never knew when he would flip into angry mode for no reason. I would NEVER expect any of them to be able to deal with him if I couldn't (and at times I couldn't).

The boy himself had no interest in working with anybody else, so I used to let him work on his own, and paired up with him myself in spoken exercises (was teaching languages). I really don't think the mainstream classroom is the most appropriate setting for teaching social skills of that magnitude, and I do feel that children's needs are neglected if they are not receiving training in how to deal with social issues they may be having. And realistically, this is not happening in mainstream settings, which means that both the NT and AS children can suffer. I don't think it's fair for the other children to have to absorb all the potential excesses of children with ASD as they can have extremely complex and demanding sets of problems.

Now the two children with Cerebral Palsy, the deaf children and those with other issues were absolutely fine in mainstream with a TA to help them when required (eg help getting up stairs or changing for PE in the case of the two with CP).

My dn and dn attend a special school, which is clearly a fabulous place, but for children with very severe needs (ds is non verbal). The special unit (for behavioural difficulties, so mostly various AS diagnosis) attached to our previous school seemed to work very well. Often the problems hit at secondary. A child that has coped quite well with an inclusive primary, with TA help, falls apart at secondary, which is a very different and difficult environment for many. A difficult transition for an NT child, let alone a child that needs continuity and order. The trouble is that there aren't enough options for children who don't fall into the severe disabilities, special school obvious category. It is however worth remembering that lots of these children in the past would not have had a diagnosis at all and would still have been in mainstream school (probably until expulsion).

Fairynufff on Sat 28-Mar-09 19:29:39
that post was really nice, your son is a lucky lad.

I would speak to the teacher and mention that your child was upset.
Expalin what he has told you ie that the other child refused to let him share the computer and so couldn't get his work done. This is effectively preventing him from achieving his potential and the teacher needs to be aware of this as it is not acceptable.
Before anyone jumps on the band wagon I am not saying that the other child should be brushed aside, quite frankly it appears that his needs are not being met either, but it is not faiys job to fight his corner.
Whilst it is one thing letting children experience the fact that there are people with disabilities and we need to understand and learn to accept this, it is quite another forcing young kids to basically do the teachers job and try and control their behaviour.

Faitrynuff, I think its really nice you're happy for your son to continue (if he doesn't get snapped at).

I'm a very different person from the way I was as a child and a lot of that is to do with learning the correct responses, and to be around people.

I don't agree to giving in to children all of the time, even if they do have special needs, because that won't help them in life. But there is a difference between being "naughty and/or awkward" and not knowing the correct response or having periods of difficulty which need to be handled sensitively.

The point is surely that OP's son is having every single IT lesson spoiled by his frustration at not beeing able to participate fully in the activities because of his partner.
This is unfair and the teacher should attemp to set up a rotation system so that all the children change partners at regular intervals.If she cant do this then someone needs to stand by to help the other little boy accept the need to share.If he is statemented for his Asperger's there should be a TA available.

I am not certain that the AS is irrlevant LO, simply as I have a child with asd and an ICT fixation and know how non cooperative he can be. certainly ny other older bys are crap at sharing (ds1 though also as, ds2 NT) but ds3 and ICT is in a class of his own with regards to obsession.

So much so that when he transfers to SNU next term I've got him in MS classes for maths but have requested not to place him in them for ICT for this very reason.

A statement is ahrd to come by for a child with AS, sadly. Even if he has one it is incredibly unlikely he would get masses of time. The statements here go in blocks of ten hours, sixteen and then SNU. DS1 has ten hours, which makes him lucky as a child with AS: in order to get it though we had to show that he was a danger to toher children, there was no real interest in other aspects: he is bright though and dsyslexia support is helping with that.

I feel for the OP's boy here. My ds2 (NT) ften acts as ds1's carer in breaktimes etc as there is no 1-1 provision placed in there. I am consiering separating them at 11 as although it will upset whichever leaves the current schools transfer group, ds2 cannot be expected to act as a carer. yet he will be asked to do so, as support is otherwise so patchy.

I am glad of some of the posts here: ds3 transfers to SNU after Easter and his 1-1 ulled me asie to tell me he could cope in MS for another year or so (until the end of infants). now, the ds3 we have at home is not the happy one we used to have and I blame a MS environment for that, bt also why would we risk it, when there's a place at a fabby SNU available now, and juniors would be an impossiblemountauin for him? but it made me doubt myself badly in wanting him to go there. (DH is adament he needs it however, as is ds3- each day is a countdown now he is so excited by hs one visit)

I used to teach ICT (secondary rather than primary), however I have taught several children with diagnosed Aspergers so my experience may be of some use.

I don't want to generalise, because in my experience every child with Aspergers is different HOWEVER, these children generally like order/routine and there is a particular issue with ICT because by definition it involves multi-tasking. In addition, computers don't always do what we expect them to do, which adds in another possible dimension.

FWIW I think it's pretty bad the kids don't have a computer each. I think it is likely that the teacher has deliberately paired your son with the other child, because of your son's qualities (so in one way it is quite a big compliment). The snapping at him wasn't fair - I have used paired working like this in desperation, but it needs managing carefully to make sure the other child isn't adversely affected.

For the children that I have taught in this context by far the best situation was if they were able to have TA support in the lessons. Without it the situation was very difficult because it was impossible to give the child enough attention/instructions without it adversely affecting the whole class (because there was only one teacher and 25 kids). Is this child entitled to TA support or is a full diagnosis required for this? Don't all classes have some TA time in primary schools? If the teacher is trying to use your son in this way it isn't fair on him.

The problem btw with rotation is that children with aspergers like routine and are stressed by change. Therefore that probably isn't an option for the teacher.

Well maybe a rotation of 4 specific pupils so that the student in question has familiarity but also diversity.

4 kids would be too much for ds3; after 3 years nursery scand school he's only learning names now, he wouldn't 'get' the pattersns.

BG- a dx is not required for a statement BUT they are like gold dust. Sadly nto all classes have a TA in primary now; when DS3 leavces for SNU the TA funding goes, there will be a class of 31 (!) with no TA, a subby teacher, a child with verbal dyspraxia, one with cancer (for some gadawful reason cancer is a med need so doesn't qualify for help from LEA- [anger]) and one with epilepsy. Thank goodness he'll be out of there.

Brettgirl-it may seem pretty bad that the children don't have a computer each, but it's the situation in lots of primary schools - the one I work at only has 16 computers in the ICT suite. We do have 2 sets of 16 laptops but if they are in use by another class the children have to share or half do other work at the tables - but not all ICT suites have room for tables. No, it's not ideal, but it is the situation in a lot of schools that can't find the £5000+ needed for an extra 15 computers.

Again, the class may have a TA but only for part of the time and if so they are more likely to be used during Maths & Literacy than IT, or they may be busy taking individual children out of the class for interventions, which are often timetabled during lesssons like IT Music or Art. One to one with a specific child is very unlikely unless the school has funding for it, which they almost certainly won't have if he hasn't yet got a diagnosis.

I agree that the teacher needs to do something about it, but I get the impression that she isn't aware of how frustrated the OP's DS is getting, which is not surprising as he has apparently been coping so well with such great patience up to now.