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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Grammar Schools and Private Schools

247 replies

peapodlovescuddles · 02/03/2009 21:59

I genuinely don't know what to think here so would be interested to see what other mumsnetters have to say

Today while my son was swimming I overheard another mother moaning. Her DD has just found out she hasn't got a place at our fantastic local grammar school.
She was saying it wasn't fair people like peapod sent their children to grammar school when we could easily afford private school fees, my DCs went to a good prep school and then onto the grammar because I wanted them to meet a wide range of people from many walks of life. I didn't feel this would be accomplished at the local public school and I don't want my children to board.

So should I have sent my children to the private school so someone less well off could have had their place? Or is ANYONE entitled to a state education?

OP posts:
chocolatedot · 04/03/2009 13:59

But haven't you looked at the practice papers? I find it rather odd that the 11+ entry test is so arcane that a reasonably intelligent adult can't figure it out.

jack99 · 04/03/2009 14:00

Odd but true.

MillyR · 04/03/2009 14:02

Is it a test that the school has made up itself? Most 11 plus formats are fairly straightforward and have a limited number of question types.

chocolatedot · 04/03/2009 14:03

So you've actually seen the practice papers and you aren't able to figure out at all what the questions are about?

TiggyR · 04/03/2009 14:10

Jack, I was just referring to the poster who got the feeling that people felt it was wrong to go through some test papers with your child, or in fact pay someone else with relevant experience to do that for you. I don't think anyone in their right mind would send a child in totally unprepared.

But I understand what you are saying, and clearly if that is the case at your local selective school then no working class children would stand a chance. Is this a general LEA 11+ , or a separate entrance exam for a specific school? It sounds as if they are selecting children on more than just ability, but on the parents' commitment to competing for a place at all costs, which is selection of another type altogether!

jack99 · 04/03/2009 14:12

Yes it is a test specific to that school.

Have briefly seen papers my neighbour had. Questions are very open to lots of interpretations - and apparently marks are only given if child picks the interpretation the school prefers - trick is to know what that interpretation will be.

Nieghbour had her daughter with a tutor but gave it up because of pressure put on her DD and cost. So she is not even sitting the test, and she is VERY bright.

jack99 · 04/03/2009 14:14

Tiggy -

Yes, you are exactly right, children are being selected on parents ability to pay. That is what I find really unacceptable.

chocolatedot · 04/03/2009 14:21

So why don't you get a full set of test papers and book a session with a tutor who has done a lot of work preparing kids for the school and get them to sit down with your and go through exactly which "interpretation" the school prefers.

TiggyR · 04/03/2009 14:23

OMG!!! This is not non-verbal reasoning for straightforward intelligence, but psychometric personality testing, which is a bit dubious for a 10/11 year old child! They are hard enough when you are being yourslef but when you are trying second guess what the tester wants you to be, bloody hell, what stress!

When my son went for his 11+ I saw one little boy walk back out of the entrance door, as everyone else queueing up to register. He was all done up in his prep school unifrom, his parents had obviously dropped him off, and gone. He was just wandering around looking totally traumatised and sobbing. The stress, and the weight of his parents' expectations and the fear of what kind of hell-hole he might end up in if he didn't pass was just to much for the poor child. It broke my heart. I wanted to hug him, and shout out 'What the hell are we all doing here? Just look at this poor boy!!

Nontoxic · 04/03/2009 14:23

My head is spinning with this thread! Jack99, not quite clear as to whether your school is grammar or another type of selective school - but bear in mind that the people telling you the test is 'impossible' to prepare for probably see you child as potential competition for theirs.

I would strongly urge you to get hold of some example papers by hook or by crook. If it is a garmmar, www.elevenplusforum.co.uk is a source of very useful info - and there's a forum for each of the different counties.

You don't have to get embroiled in the rights and wrongs of the whole issue, but you can ask about anything related to tests, scores, standardisation etc. and someone will always answer.

Fwiw, DD has just passed for our local grammar, and I would say she was tutored (so hang me!) as myself and DH went through papers with her and practised the different types of questions.

However, from what she said about the test, I would say that they really are designed to sift out those with the most potential. In practise she always completed even the hard papers in time, and scored at least 85% - but in the test she left out 12 questions(!) and said some of it was 'really hard.'

She also passed for one of the country's top mixed grammars but is going to our local one.

I think the schools are very wise to tutored applicants, and set their tests accordingly.

jack99 · 04/03/2009 14:24

Choc - yes worth a try, though not sure how many sessions would be needed.

Don't want to commit to the two years worth that everyone in the area insist is needed!

Or is this just a racket cooked up by the tutors preying on our fear?

MillyR · 04/03/2009 14:24

How do all these children from all over the country get into the school if only local tutors know what the correct interpretation is? Are there any test papers online that you can post a link to?

MillyR · 04/03/2009 14:25

Jack, I have thought that about tutors in our area. It is a bit of a con based on fear.

Nontoxic · 04/03/2009 14:26

Sorry www.elevenplusexams.co.uk/forum/11plus/index.php.

jack99 · 04/03/2009 14:29

Milly

There are tutors all over UK who do this apparently. It is that manic!

Not sure if papers are online. Will have to ask neighbour.

I think I will go to the next open day for the school and ask them their opinion on all this!

chocolatedot · 04/03/2009 14:30

Most schools have example papers on their website

TiggyR · 04/03/2009 14:31

Jack99 is this a state school?

jack99 · 04/03/2009 14:40

Tiggy -

Yes, agree totally, this particualr test is crazy! I really need to tackle the school on how they justify it.

That poor little boy! Being abandoned at the test centre by his parents can't have helped. Could they not have spared a few minutes to get him safely settled in?

I hate all this test pressure - it is so hard on kids and doesn't even test true ability.

Nontoxic · 04/03/2009 14:40

Sorry crossed posts Jack99 - it obviously isn't a grammar - but what can be the harm in trying for the test? If it's so obtuse, I can't see how the tutored children would stand a better chance than others.
If you think the school is worth it and your DD can undertake it with out feeling pressured and stressed, why not just go for it?

jack99 · 04/03/2009 14:41

Nontoxic-

Thanks for those tips.

Well done to your DD.

As I have said before, doing some preparation at home is not high pressure coaching, it is just sensible.

jack99 · 04/03/2009 14:44

Nontoxic - it IS a grammar, but they set their own uniquely wacky test. Not sure how they get away with that, but they do.

Think you are right, should just try it anyway. It is a shame neighbour's DD was put off by all the tutoring nonsense.

thirtysomething · 04/03/2009 14:45

when DS went for his interview at a very selective boys' school, having passed the exam from a state school without being tutored, the headmaster told us they could tell he hadn't been tutored and much prefer it that way! He said their tests are designed to spot potential rather than mark children on how well prepared they are. The reasoning test sounded very off the wall and none of the children found it at all easy, including those from the linked junior school or those who'd been tutored. It sounded like an original test you just couldn't prepare for when DS described it.

jack99 · 04/03/2009 14:46

Tiggy - yes it is a state school.

jack99 · 04/03/2009 14:50

Thirty - sounds like a really sensible school. That was the approach of my DDs present school and it definitely worked. My DD was offered a place and really enjoyed the assessment day, her heavily tutored classmate was not and looked really stressed at the end of the day.

MillyR · 04/03/2009 14:54

I think this situation has come about because we don't have even distribution of grammar schools. Ideally, everywhere in the UK would have the same number of grammar school places and everyone would sit the same tests. But this will never happen as some people want to get rid of the system and others want to retain it. While this remains the case, Government responds by ignoring the patchy and confusing entrance system.