Grammar Schools and Private Schools

[peapodlovescuddles]

I genuinely don't know what to think here so would be interested to see what other mumsnetters have to say

Today while my son was swimming I overheard another mother moaning. Her DD has just found out she hasn't got a place at our fantastic local grammar school.
She was saying it wasn't fair people like peapod sent their children to grammar school when we could easily afford private school fees, my DCs went to a good prep school and then onto the grammar because I wanted them to meet a wide range of people from many walks of life. I didn't feel this would be accomplished at the local public school and I don't want my children to board.

So should I have sent my children to the private school so someone less well off could have had their place? Or is ANYONE entitled to a state education?

BonsoirAnna - I have a French friend who lives here in the UK who has told me a lot of state school teachers do private tutoring after work because school finishes quite early in the day. She says that the children of parents who hire the teacher as a tutor get preferential treatment at school and those that do not have the private tutoring get left at the back of the class and ignored.

Is that even slightly true?

My friend says that there is in fact a lot more 'private eductation' of a tutoring nature going on in France than people will admit to as the state system is fairly sparse. The Catholic backed state schools are generally more highly regarrded I believe.

The Poole policy doesn't exclude prep pupils, just puts them further down the priority list (behind children in care, state school pupils etc).

Personally (of course it's not going to happen), I would only abolish grammar and private schools together.

Anna, haven't you posted before that, because French private schools are so heavily subsidised by the government, this has greatly increased their popularity but they are not quite the same thing as UK private schools?

Interesting thread. I was at a friend's house today who was dreading her DD coming home as the results had come through the letter box.

Her DD set her heart on going to the Grammar and went off to take the exam with no coaching at all, it was totally her decision, her parents hadn't suggested that she took it.

She has passed but because we are out of catchment she hasn't got a place. A few years ago she would have been very likely to have got in, the figure used to be something like 1 in 3 got a place, this year from what I've heard it is 1 in 5, I've heard the increase is due to people not opting for the private sector as they would have previously.

Her Mum sat there looking very dejected about having to tell her but started trying to look on the bright side saying things along the lines of perhaps it is for the best, that they wouldn't be able to keep up socially with a lot of families at the Grammar, which was very sad to hear.

Tutoring is a huge business here - there are "chains" of tutor shops that have horrible brand names that make pedants shudder and that advertise widely on radio/buses/in the metro . However, one of the drivers of the expansion of the tutoring industry are the extensive tax breaks afforded to anyone who provides in-home services (cleaning/ironing/maths tuition all fall under this bracket).

I know that teachers with full time jobs do tutoring but have no idea, however, about how tutoring affects the relationship of teacher and pupil in the classroom.

Pristina - French private schools are not the same as English private schools as the teachers salaries are paid by the state.

However, the issue of catchment area for state schools versus no catchment area for private schools (who have criteria for selection of pupils) is, broadly, similar to England.

Wynken, that is a disgrace, if she was told she had passed the exam that should alos go with a place - what is the point of getting her hopes up if she is turned down just because of where she lives.

Our local girls grammar takes applications from all over the UK, people move into the area if they get a place. It means it is virtually impossible for a bright local girl to get a place. Seems very unfair that different areas have such different policies.

What does your friend mean about "not keeping up socially with a lot of the families at the grammar"? I doubt if their backgrounds are that grand!

Apparently 28 girls outside catchment passed but haven't been offered places. And the letter said "congratulations, you have passed" then went on to say the bit about not having a place.

I think she feels that the Grammar has a reputation as most of the families being affluent professionals. My friend is lovely but doesn't have a lot of self confidence and was saying how she wished she was a bit cleverer and is quite low on self esteem and thinks that people would look down on her, which is very sad.

They are going to fill in the appeal form and will do all they can, so you never know but it isn't sounding likely.

Wynken - what a stupid admissions policy - I would definitely appeal if i were your friend.

And what an insensitive letter!

I think it may be that they allow people from a really wide area to sit the test, then select the very brightest regardless of where they live, followed by a core of local children, and so lowest priority would be those who were out of area, and passed, but not in the top tier? I'd love to know how they allocate the places. I know for the Colchester and Chelmsford grammar schools they have children coming in from 30-40 miles away. And sometimes a child from the Chelmsford area does not get into the local grammars but slogs all the way down to Southend because they got a place there instead, which is viewed as a sort of consolation prize! Poor kids spend so long on a bus they may as well go and board somewhere.

AllFallDown, Dorney Lake at Eton is an odd choice to support your argument. It's a site for the 2012 Olympics and is in constant use by local groups with a calendar of triathalons and regattas throughout the year. It is also used by a wide range of local schools to teach kids rowing on. From memory I think around 600 kids a year to learn there.

I do agree with Mollieo's first post.
It is unfair.The whole system is unfair tbh.

Having said that if the mother was so concerned she could have sat with her child and given it 11+ practice papers on a regular basis
Off to read rest of thread now.

To be precise the charitable status is worth a collective £100 million to the entire private sector against the state education budget of around £80 billion so a tiny fraction.

But life is unfair. It's jolly unfair that I'm only 5' 2" with thighs like a 1970's Russian shotput champion, but without the muscle tone, but I don't deal with it by suggesting that everyone with nice long legs should have them forcibly amputated.

I know that local girls grammar do not have this policy - take girls from all over UK, regardless of where they live. Local girls get virtually no chance, though local authority here have to pay for it. They should set a sensible catchment area which gives a reasonable journey time and then select on ability.

We are in an 11+ area but the tests are Verbal and non verbal reasoning.We are a working class family.I bought a set of the practice papers which .My DC worked through approx a couple each of VR and non VR (doing about 10 questions per session) . They did 4 papers of each.Their second papers were better than the first but after that their performances levelled off and there was no real improvement.They both passed with no tuition
So in the case of VR and non VR I am not sure that tutoring is effective.
I suspect the reason that more private schooled kids get in is because they are more likely to have parents in well paid jobs who are more likely to academic themselves and pass those genes on to their offspring

Going back to OP, another way of looking at it is to look at evidence which suggests that pupils ALL tend to do better at schools with a certain percentage of pupils from backgrounds which value education and who are perhaps bright, perhaps middle class but more importantly who bring some respect for learning and the classroom. A tipping point as it were.
Afraid I don't have a reference but can see it would be the case from experience... from that point of view it makes sense for parents to send their children to state schools as by increasing numbers of children willing to learn and not dumb down, the classroom will be a better place for learning. Whether parents and pupils are middle class or not is irrelevant, more important to be those who value learning and promote education.

Sparklemez, Well yes, except as a previous poster said, why is it my responsibility to worry about your child's performance? With the best will in the world we will never eradicate that section of society where the parents are twats and the children (perhaps through no fault of their own, or perhaps because they are just nasty cocky little shits with no boundaries and no respect) are incapable of functioning effectively in the classroom, and are disruptive and a negative influence. Our children only have one stab at this - we cannot use them as pawns in a conscience-easing social experiment.

The biggest factor in determining a child's educational success is his or her parents' status. No amount of government interference and tweaking, social engineering and positive discrimination written into admissions policies is ever going to change that. We could burn all the Old Etonians at the stake but it wouldn't change a thing for failing state schools. As usual, all the focus is on damage limitation rather than addressing the real source of the problem.

katie star! are you in the cathedral town or the castle town?

children do get into these schools without tutoring

Valuing education is the key.

Sadly in todays society it is mostly, but not exclusively middle class families who emphasis the benefits of a good education, I suspect that is because many families are like mine and have only migrated into the middle classes by dint of hard work and hard fought education often at night school.

It is interesting that two of my Grandparents won scholarships / places at excellent senior schools but were forced to forgo them to start working at 14. My Grandmother who won a funded place at a grammar but was deprived the opportunity take it up (to go into domestic service) as her brothers hadn't got in has never forgiven her Father.

I had a very similar thread to this recently. I must admit that I think that everyone should be entitled to a high quality FREE education.

BTW is absolute nonsense that only those who can pay for tutors get into state grammars. DD passed with no additional tutoring.

We have local state grammars , of course as a tax payer you are entitled to that place. If I knew that another child was loosing a grammar place and they could not afford private fees I would happily give them dd place but I am a bit of a leftie loon.

My local grammar apparantly priorities children from state schools.

Not everyone wants their children to go to the grammar though, I would prefer my dd went to the school I teach at rather than the grammar. I also teach top sets in every yearsgroup and there are students who have chosen to come to us rather than the grammar.

quattrocento - three of mine have passed with no tutoring either - sometimes I think folk think it's no possible!

If sparkle is right then one answer would be to put 1% of working class pupils from bad homes into schools with 99% of middle class valuation education children so they are a tiny % and do not affect the rest but do we have enough middle class pupils to achieve that?

It's wholly unfair that most areas have no grammar schools and some have none. If htey abolished them where I was brought up in about 1971 is tehre really any difference in chidlren in that area (NE) than say Kent so why are children in Kent given grammar schools but the NE ones not? I can't see any good reason that there are differences around teh country.

jack99 it's like that here too (maybe we are in the same area)

Why would you send your child to a private school if the grammar is better? Well of parents aren't stupid, they are not going to waste their money on sending thier DC's to a medeocre fee paying school rather than the grammer.

Bog off swimming pool mum.