Grammar Schools and Private Schools

[peapodlovescuddles]

I genuinely don't know what to think here so would be interested to see what other mumsnetters have to say

Today while my son was swimming I overheard another mother moaning. Her DD has just found out she hasn't got a place at our fantastic local grammar school.
She was saying it wasn't fair people like peapod sent their children to grammar school when we could easily afford private school fees, my DCs went to a good prep school and then onto the grammar because I wanted them to meet a wide range of people from many walks of life. I didn't feel this would be accomplished at the local public school and I don't want my children to board.

So should I have sent my children to the private school so someone less well off could have had their place? Or is ANYONE entitled to a state education?

grammar

Xenia - my understanding is that Kent has never abolished grammar schools because it is such a Right wing county...

To the people saying their children got into grammar school without the need for tutoring - are they all in state education? And if so, what area do you live in and what percentage of school places are grammar/selective? In some areas it can be as high as 30%. Where I am it is as low as 2% and not higher than 5%. With the competition that fierce you would have to be very very sure of your child's abilities to say no to tutoring!

We are not saying that it is 100% necessary to have tutoring - only that middle class children with the benefits of private education and/or tutoring are at a distinct advantage in getting through the test.

Wow this is a popular thread. Our local primary has no where to send the children to secondary school. It may be true that people are leaving private and increasing pressure on state schools so the best are way oversubscribed. My main concern at schools is belonging to a community and poor behaviour 1st. If your child is capable with your support they will succeed. Maybe now with wealthy areas oversubscribed poor schools will be flooded with better educated, behaved children....though the two certainly do not go hand in hand. At the beginning of this thread someone stated they wanted to go to grammer school for the mix of backgrounds.... i may be wrong but grammers are largely full of educated middle classes, not poor people, neglected children, and so on. The main problem for parents is hoping your child has the best opportunity and can learn in a happy safe environment. We need more schools, good resources and teaching for all abilities, (streaming sounds good but once streamed it can be hard to get out)and an effective way to deal with disruption. I dont think it can be done.

I support my childrens education with time not money, i hope that pays off. We tutor not to get a better school but to help our children cope with and succeed in their lessons, to help them do as well as they are capable, they may not be more capable than some gifted or bright children but we have helped them be the best they can.

I cannot bear church schools...the ultimate middle class enclaves. School is for education, religion is for home and church...although i think faith is a nonsense for any intelligent rational person.

Private education is fine but they are paying for the resources and class sizes that should be available to all.

I feel so sorry for schools and teachers but excited that we all seem to care about it now.

"Private education is fine but they are paying for the resources and class sizes that should be available to all."

No developed country affords the type of education available in British private schools within their state systems. The infrastructure/facilities and pupil:teacher ratios in the British private education world are totally out of reach for tax-funded schools, anywhere.

Hi Tiggy

My ds got in without private tuition. There are about 3,000 children in each year in LEA state primary and 300 grammar school places. The grammar school does not have a catchment system and you do not have to live in the LEA to sit the test. One of the schools is 0.5 miles from the LEA border so many of the children who sit the test do not live within the LEA border as the neighbouring LEA has no grammar schools. The Head has said that about 10% of those who get in are from independent preps.

So although there are 10% grammar schools places in the LEA, in reality I would estimate that there are only about 5% of children from state primary within the LEA getting a place. I think this is fair because it is not the fault of the children in the neighbouring LEA that there are no grammars within their borders.

The maths 11plus contains only KS2 level questions, so as long as a parent has helped with maths at home throughout primary school, their child should be able to pass the maths. I would not consider that an unfair advantage, but just something a parent should do even if their child is not sitting the 11plus.

There is no familiarisation with VR at school, so parents would need to go through the question types at home so that the child doesn't waste time in the exam trying to make sense of the question type. But any adult who is literate would be able to do this from free internet downloads. The rest of VR ability is based on a child having a wide vocabulary (provided by parents talking to their child, reading to them, playing scrabble) and being able to code break (puzzle books and logic problems throughout primary years). We also did the Usborne guide to trees, dogs, flowers, the seashore etc when we were out on walks so that ds could answer the odd one out type questions.

I do not consider any of that some secret form of tutoring; I just consider it being a parent who contributes to their child's education. It is an effort, and was tiring as we did more stuff than usual in year 5 in the run up to the 11plus, but I do not see why the average working class parent cannot do this.

Too right Anna. People sometimes seem to forget that most private schools are non-profit making and so the £12- 18k a year cost is indeed the real cost of that education. As you say, no country could afford that to be funded by the taxpayer.

The tutor is a red herring I am sorry but I do not believe that any child passed the 11+ without first seeing an exam practise papaer be that at a school which relies on it's pass rates for it's popularity or by parents who go out and buy them.
Either way whether parents do the work at home or send them to a school where passing is the norm/expected even within the state system they are increasing their chances in life generally.
We have a school 200 meters down the road I fought tooth and nail to avoid because they send 10 children to the grammar v's 20 at my DC's child but I had to be aware of that and prepared to pay for a tutor/buy past papers still to make sure.

but I do not see why the average working class parent cannot do this.

Honestly ? Because they are more interested in who won xfactor.
My best friend for years had a bright daughter who should have gone to the grammar in stafford but because her SIL's kids weren't bright enough and the daughter wanted to go where they went the child was never given the chance to take the exam. It was more about being popular, a sheep, goodness knows where the kid is now we lost touch but I doubt she's amounted to much. The whole parents attitude was appalling.

Sorrento - you got there before me! It's not always a question of cost, Milly, more of inclination and expectation. Many children who may be extremely bright but actually very socially disadvantaged (or parentally disadvantaged!) not get the benefits of the effort you clearly put into helping your children. They may have a high IQ but have a really poor vocabulary as they have been around people who are basically neanderthals! They may have no books in the house, and whilst a teacher will always look out to nurture these children sometimes they themselves will feel it's just not the done thing to be too clever. Some kids would actually see it as a stigma to go to a grammar school with all the nerds, geeks and mummy's boys! Sadly I don't think there is much we can do about that. Well, there is, but unfortunately by the time they are at school it's too late.

In areas where there were no grammar schools bright children from less well off families could until recently have had a good private school education with an assisted place. This government has scrapped the assisted places scheme but allowed grammars to continue so the education system is less fair than it was under the tories. The government is now trying to force the private sector to offer assisted places funded by the private schools. All this means is that the private fees will go up to pay for the free places, pricing more people out of private education so that it will be left serving the very rich and the bright poor (who are clued up enough to apply). It is therefore no wonder that people on middle incomes are doing whatever it takes to get their children into good state schools.

Sorrento & Tiggy - There can often be a strong feeling in working class families that the best schools (top state grammars and better private schools included) are "not for the likes of us" and we "shouldn't try to get above ourselves".

This was my MILs attitude when my DD got a place at one of the top girls preps in the country (without tutoring!). She told me our DD would not be able to keep up with "all those rich families" and we were "putting her under too much pressure". Well, guess what, she love it!

My dad faced the same attitude years ago when he was the first from his working class family to gain a place at grammar school. He still went, but felt he was struggling against his family's attitudes all the way through his school career.

TiggyR - Where I live there are 575 state grammar places across the LA. There are generally 3500 - 4000 children competing for those places. My untutored kids went to an ordinary state primary.

Lowenergy - the girls grammar in our LA takes applications from all over the UK and people move into the area just to go to the school if they get offered a place. Consequently the percentage of girl pupils living in the LA who get a place here is probably less than 1%.

And I would be pretty sure that almost every single one has shelled out for years of tutoring.

Makes me cross!

As I said before it is not always that they are tutored, but as Sorrento said, how many of them go in cold without ever having seen a past paper and done a bit of practice? I know people who have said they haven't had tutors for their children, (but they are usually teachers themselves ) but does that mean that their child has had no help whatsoever? Private schools offer children more help to pass (esp. if they do not have a senior section to feed to) because their very reputation and future business depends on it. In my experience most state schools are quite laid back about 11+ coaching - a few classes after school a month or two before the exam just to talk them through tactics is all. But that's still not going in cold is it?

Tiggy - in THIS case, what I understand from talking to as many parents as i can pin down (from both local state primaries and prep schools) is that it is the general belief that without at least two years of formal tutoring with one of the local tutors who specialise in this school a girl, no matter how bright, will have NO chance of getting in this school. Something to do with unusual types of tests they have in the exam.

It seems that simply working independently on past papers etc will NOT do it.

Not just my opinion, its what EVERY parent I have spoken to says.

This is due to the intense competition for places - and the catchment area is UK wide.

As I said in previous post, probably less than 1% of local girls get a place here.

Not the same with other grammars mentioned by other posters - you are probably right in those cases.

I am not arguing with you Jack! I think the competion for places varies hugely from school to school, and just beacuse one person has one experience in one borough doesn't mean it will be the same for others. Back to the original point, middle class children from affluent and/or intelligent parents be they tutored or non-tutored, state or non-state educated will always have a better chance because they receive more intensive support.

Interesting - the school mine are at has no catchment. I was talking to one mum at the test one year who was planning to send her son to live with his grandparents if he got in (they lived in a different city to the school )

The test here is different from a lot of other 11+ tests. According to a tutor friend of mine it's uncoachable, and according to the school it's not a test of where a child is at it's a test of potential.

Sure you can look at different types of resources and talk about exam technique (i.e not lingering over questions that you can't do) but having been through it a few times I can't see how (for our area) you could tutor someone up to pass it who hasn't got that potential there.

I've known plenty of kids who've had 2 years of intensive coaching, kids who've been to private schools etc who haven't got into the schools here. And I've had a bit of 'flack' from fellow parents who've gone down the tutoring route and thought that it was wrong/unfair that my kids were offered places and theirs weren't.

why is it ok (in fact, positively encouraged) to help your child learn to read at home, help them with homework etc in junior school but yet it's not ok (if I'm reading the right vibe on this thread...) to show them some 11+ papers before the exam so they know what to expect?? DS passed 11+ equivalent for highly selective school (we don't have grammars around here)with no tutoring but we did look at some papers with him so he wouldn't be thrown on the day re format etc. His state primary school however is currently obsessing over SATs doing booster classes and past paper over-kill so I do think the lines are blurred!!

Tiggy - didn't think you were arguing with me. Sorry, got a bit of a bee in my bonnet about this school at the moment! And I accept it is a very unusual case.

Thinking about possible senior schools for DD at the moment. Not boasting, but all her teachers say she is one of the brightest pupils they have had, so should be ideal candidate. But everyone is telling me that NO ONE has no chance of getting in without going to one of these tutors for 2 hours a week for the next 2 years! Due to some unusual types of tests they do so I'm told. I don't want to put that much pressure on the poor girl, so looks like we cannot even consider this school!

Can this be right?

Thirtysomething -

I don't think anyone is criticising doing some practice at home and looking at past papers. Anyone can do this and it costs nothing, just a bit of time. It is the emphasis on shelling out large wads of cash on private tutors and putting kids through a lot of extra formal teaching which I find offensive.

Low income families can't do it even if they want to, so their children are prevented from benefiting from a school which is publicly funded.

Can't you get hold of example papers? (sorry if you've already covered this)

It isn't wrong! It's what any right minded parent would do if they were serious about getting a place, given the level of competition. The argument is just about private school children having an unfair advantage over children from poorer backgrounds who may have the same or greater natural ability /IQ but lack the same level of support, or may have poorer quality teaching and bigger class sizes. But it's a pointless argument because everything in life is like that. Personally I think the only cast-iron way of making sure that it does not happen would be to do away with selective education in the state system. Certainly in the grammar schools in my area (the Chelmsord and Colchester ones) I think the huge, overwhelming majority of children would be from fairly affluent to extremely affluent backgrounds.

Chocolatedot -

Yes can get example papers but general consensus is that the test is so "odd" that coaching needed to make any sense of them! Seems mad I know but that is what everyone tells me!

Tiggy -

It is wrong that it is necessary to spend significant amounts of money on tutoring (would be at least £100 per week for the school I have been posting about) to have ANY chance of getting a place at a publicly funded school!

There are a LOT of "right minded parents" who just do not have £400 a month to spare to pay for this.

This is an extreme example, granted, but it is WRONG!