to think that day care centres or 'nurseries' should be banned?

[Goodomen]

Having spent some time working (doing supply) in several different nurseries I have been appalled by the treatment of the babies and and young children.

The babies spend most of the day crying, desperately wanting to be held or have some kind of one to one attention.

They are all forced to 'nap' at the same time whether they are tired or not.

They are put in highchairs and fed one by one with the poor children at the end of the row crying until it is their turn to be fed.

The worst part is when the parent arrives to collect their child and asks how they have been they are told 'He/She has been fine, had a lovely time' even if the child has been crying all day!

Why oh why would anyone out there child in such a place?
If you have to work get a childminder!

My dd1 went to the same nusery from being 6 weeks old to almost four years old. with only a short break.

She was always happy to go to nursery and mad many friends there.

She still talks about her 'old nursery' now that she is 5 and only has fond memories. Like another poster I would collect her at different times each day and she was always happy and playing. Never left crying even as a baby.

Her nusery had three carers to 6 babies in the baby room with extra help from the kitchen staff at feeding times for the ones who were being weaned.

The nursery even toilet trained her, from about two and she was always dry. Even on a night time.

She is a very happy and confident little girl who makes friends easily and I think the nursery is to thank for that. I am considering putting dd2 into nursery, not from neccessity but because dd1 enjoyed it s much I think it would be good for d2 and help her learn social skills.

I don't think your op was helpfull or accurate and I hope that you haven't upset too many posters who are probably already feeling guilty for wanting to work andhave a sense of self outside of being a parent.

I'am sick to death of this debate.

I do not give a flying fuck about people who are SAHM or WOHM becaus I am not them and I don't know their circumstances which dictates whether they and their kids are better off in a nusery or childminder or home with mum.

Kepp your nasty judgyness to yourself please unitl you've actually walked a mile in their shoes. We often jump on posters who are being judgy about other parents (and rightly so) but working parents are fair game?

Even though I am a SAHM I niavely thought with my first that he needed the company of other kids at the age of 2 (what planet was I on?). I took him to a local nursery that came highly recommended. It was very posh: former manor house, set in large grounds, montessori principles, meat free menu etc. The alarm bells were ringing for me immediately but my lack of experience hushed them up. When I picked him up he looked traumatised and wouldn't look me in the eyes, wouldn't speak and took about an hour to regain normality. He screamed, scratched, cried,clung when I dropped him off but I was ushered out with a hand firmly pressed on my back. But they would say "oh he's been fine" "he ate a whole plate of pasta" (he hated pasta) "oh he's been playing happily outside" etc. Eventually after a couple of weeks I woke up and smelt the coffee and never went back. I subsequently heard of a staff member who left because she didn't like what was happening there.

It is still a successful nursery and people still talk about it in glowing terms.

We have a close friend who does agency work in local nurseries and her opinion is that 'some are better than others' but the inference is none are really ideal. She especially said it was worse for those kids left for up to 9 hours a day 5 days a week.

All the people I know who 'have to go out to work' live a life I can only dream of: foreign holidays, big houses, 2 cars etc. We have chosen to live the life without those luxuries so that I could stay at home and look after the kids.

For some people, they are just going to be lucky and happen to have a nursery that at that moment has a dedicated professional team. Childminders are a mixed bunch too: I've seen dozens of them at the school and some you would trust your kids with 100% others - not so much.

If feel sorry for the OP. She is just trying to give mums a heads up. Unfortunately people don't often like the truth...

PrimulaVeris, it's worse than that. Presumably you have to be born into money, as there's no point working to make yourself financially secure. Or you have to be financially secure on benefits.

londonone, sorry I missed your posts about primary carers.

mrsmattie - I have every intention of doing what my mother did and going back to work (perhaps part time) when my children are school age. FWIW I have actually changed careers as I realised I wanted a family and my previous career was not very compatible with my views of bringing up children

georgimama - I actually came on here as I have an interest in some areas discussed and am also planning on becoming a parent fairly shortly. I didn't realise that one had to have given birth to have an opinion. And yes I do think that at some point we have to make a choice about our lives and I personally think taking a break from work whilst your children are BABIES is not a huge sacrifice.

Frasersmummy - What a good argument I wish I could have come up with it myself.

PrimulaVeris - I don't think it's eugenics to suggest that people should have children if they can afford them or who else should pay for them?

My DS went to a nursery at 9 months. At that age it genuinely was brilliant. No more than 2 babies to one carer, lots of one on one attention (as frequently his alloted carer for the day had no other child to look after) and really good for helping him get into a routine. It was significantly more expensive than a CM but we considered it worth it.

By the time he was 18 months old and had moved to the toddler room things weren't so good. On paper still excellent - good ratios far better than minimum standard permitted, lots of quality facilites, good food etc etc but it was no longer right for him. He was very bored and in my opinion was ready to move up to the older toddler's room where he would get stimulus from slightly older children. They refused. He started biting. They seemed unable to stop it or explain trigger factors.

Things were in effect no longer working out there. We decided to look for a CM and again, took time to interview and get references. We found a very good CM who he adores, her other mindee is 3 years old and Ds is still there when her own 8 year old son comes home from school.

Some nurseries are good, some aren't. Some CMs are good, some aren't. The important point is that you need to find the childcare that suits your child and your circumstances, and that won't necessarily be the same kiond of care all the way through their pre-school years.

I've realised this comes down to, as many things do, whether you think it's the ideal for children to be cared for by a parent, or whether they can be cared for by a non parent. Both sides basing thei argument on that assumption, so there's never going to be an agreement really.

Not all nurseries are businesses out to make a profit.

DS2 went to a nursery run by the parents at one point, and any surpluses were reinvested for the benefit of the children. He was much better cared for there than he was in Reception at school a few months later, tbh, where the kids had to sit still all day being quiet, and were not fed and toileted at the right times for them. Plus his after-lunch rest had to go out of the window then, and consequently he was shattered when he came home. We are still in touch with some of the nursery nurses. One of them has even asked if we want her to be our nanny when DS3 arrives. DS2's friendship group is huge, and I think he really developed a good nack of reading other children and making friends with everyone around him as a result of his nursery experience. So it was money well spent, although we did not realise the educational and social benefits of nursery when we signed him up.

I know there are bad nurseries - there is a shocking one near here that was slammed by OFSTED and had to relaunch - but many of them are really positive places. Just like there are good and bad parents.

spb I think for some it does come down to that.

But given the amount of children who are in daycare settings shouldn't we be acknowledging that the standard of care is inadequate in a large amount of those settings? If we have to put our children into paid childcare, shouldn't we be able to do so with peace of mind? Without having to look at bad nurseries before we get to the good ones? I'm afraid a childminder would never be an option for me as I've never encountered a good one.

Londonone - i think you should save this thread and come back to it when you have your family

life is what happens when you are busy making plans

you never know which way your life will turn out and you may find yourself in a very different situation

it does stick in my throat a bit that you have not been in the situation yourself

If I "took a break" from my career until my son was school age (so not a baby at all, actually) I would have a permenant break - I wouldn't have a career to go back to.

"I don't think it's eugenics to suggest that people should have children if they can afford them or who else should pay for them"

So let me get this straight:

1. you can have kids if you are going to stay at home until they are 5, whereupon one of these mythical careers which accomodates having been unemployed for five plus years and allows flexi part time working with time off for 10 plus weeks of school holidays will magically materialise for you

or

2. your partner (and obviously we don't mean male partner, let's kid ourselves that this primary carer business doesn't automatically fall on the woman in 99 out of 100 cases) earns enough to keep you both without you working at all

or

3. you are independently wealthy

or

4. you intend to live on benefits

Great. As I said - you want to divide women into workers or breeders.

Sorry if I won't be defined solely by my biology to oblige bigots.

Eugenics is a strong term - but it includes the singling out of certain sectors of society as being 'unfit to breed', and 'undesirables'. This included the poor. What you choose for yourself is your business and yours alone - but the concept that only the financially secure should reproduce is coming pretty close to eugenic-type ideas I think

Fairynuff - not all 'I have to work' couples are necessarily as rich as you describe. DH and I are both public sector, we have one old car, we don't have a big house or lots of flash hols.

Where IS Xenia???

OP is talking out of her rear end. No doubt there are some nurseries which fall short of acceptable standards and if OP was genuinely concerned then she should report them.

DTS were in nursery 3 days a week from age 7months. When they could walk, they ran to their nursery - could not wait to go in. I use to turn up at different times depending on my work pattern and all the children were cared for, stimulated, received lots of attention and genuinely adored their carers.

I decided not to leave my DTS with a childminder because I did not want them in an environment where I did not know who would have access to them plus if the CM was having an off day, there would be no-one else to support her.

Going to nursery was fantastically beneficial for the boys development.

I disagree with a lot of what's been said here but out of interest, wouldn't you want to know that this kind of thing can go on in nurseries if you were using one or contemplating using one? Nurseries are here to stay, it's a fact of life, but to make parents aware that they should try and pop in unannounced every so often and maybe some of the things they should question staff closely about can only be a good thing...can't it?

Probably on her island.

I don't want anyone to out her but I would dearly love to know who she is. Everyone else seems to have worked it out and I don't have a clue!

lot's of women give up work when they have children georgimama....i wouldn't of had any if i'd had to go back to work when they were babies.

wannaBe, yes
(sorry, not being curt, just agree with you and have nothing to add!)

sinkingfast - bad nurseries should absolutely be outed

but i would wager that most parents who use nurseries do all the things you say and more

i have stayed with DS whilst he has had tea, dropped in unannounced and more

i speak to his key worker every day - actually they usually speak to me first

Message withdrawn

Yes daftpunk, lots of women do give up work when they have children and that is their perogative. You wouldn't have had a family if you had had to go back to work when they were babies - your choice.

I object to being told I should give up work whilst my son is pre-school by someone who knows jack about children in general, and certainly knows nothing about me or my son.

Actually I object to being told I should give up work by anyone.

If parents are doing all those things, then they've nothing to worry about, but I don't understand why they're criticising the OP and others for saying "look, this can happen, we've seen it". Surely you respond "well, it doesn't happen in ours but I'm sure it happens in some, so thanks for flagging it up"? I don't understand the thinking that the OP and others are talking bollocks because what they're saying is not true in individual nurseries that are being used by posters on here?

Doesn't everyone do a bit of maternal espionage to check everything is working out OK in terms of childcare?

If not they should. I would even do this if my mum was looking after the kids.

Can I speak up for childminders? If it is wrong to condemn all nurseries because some get it wrong, then presumably it is equally wrong to write off all childminders because you saw an incompetent one at toddlers group?

I have employed three childminders and not one has been lazy, incompetent or a screaming harridan. In fact, I feel they are rather most trustworthy than I am.

The OP originally said nurseries should be banned. She has since apologised and I joined the debate after it had moved on from the OP.

We are now, unsurprisingly, into the latest round of attacking working mothers. That is what object to.

My DH and I both work part time so share parenting so don't use any childcare but then I wonder/worry that my child doesn't get the stimulation of a nursery, other adults looking after him.
There are things we don't have because we choose to do this - big house, big holidays, big purchases but it suits us and really thats all that matters.
As long as people are content with the choices they are making then I don't give a fig what they do with their children and equally I wouldn't expect them to care what I do with mine.