to think that day care centres or 'nurseries' should be banned?

[Goodomen]

Having spent some time working (doing supply) in several different nurseries I have been appalled by the treatment of the babies and and young children.

The babies spend most of the day crying, desperately wanting to be held or have some kind of one to one attention.

They are all forced to 'nap' at the same time whether they are tired or not.

They are put in highchairs and fed one by one with the poor children at the end of the row crying until it is their turn to be fed.

The worst part is when the parent arrives to collect their child and asks how they have been they are told 'He/She has been fine, had a lovely time' even if the child has been crying all day!

Why oh why would anyone out there child in such a place?
If you have to work get a childminder!

Goodomen seems to be talking from personal experience. I frankly don't trust nurseries either. I'm sure that there must be good nurseries out there - but how does one reliably determine the wheat from the chaff? ...and it is seriously deluded to think that there is no chaff. Actually I wouldn't entrust a pre-verbal child to a child minder or nanny either; not to criticise anyone who does, but it's just not right for me and my family.

I had major misgivings about my dd's ex-nursery (this is going back 4 years) - I couldn't come up with anything tangible, but certainly she was unhappy there. It was a key factor in giving up work.

I know a young woman who had work experience in a local nursery, and despite it's good reputation she was askance at some of the practices. I won't forget that BBC documentary a few years back either in a hurry.

It's unfortunate if this comes across as unsupportive of WOHMs - but I don't see that pretending that everything in the garden is invariably lovely, is particularly helpful

x posted with goodomen's last post - well ok then - very graciously put . I apologise for my grumpiness too!

HMC - I love my daughter's nursery. It is an excellent choice for us - but I recognise and endorse that if your gut says no, you should always, always listen to it!

Oh and Desiderata - I've got a cool book to read too - just need to drag self away from mumsnet first!

I totally agree with every word of willowthespa. And i ve worked in Nurseries too so i know what i m talking about.

Been customer in a place is diferent than been emploee. It is like with restaurants. I can eat out every evening but i ll never know what is really going on in the kitchen. Only the staff do. But when they try to tell me i might not like it. It s in human nature i guess. Still i wouldn't swear at them.

chewitt has also put it very well. I always say that nurseries are just business and as business they only have one purpose: to make money. Increase profit, minimise cost, taking short cuts... It is not a Holy place set up by Mother Teressa in order to help working parents. Why the need to defent them so passionately unless you have shares in them?

As for the diaries... Please!! We used to write what the babies ate before the meal times (!!) this was under the manager's instructions because 'after mealtime is going to be hectic and i need you in the other room'

I think Northern - the trouble with these kind of threads is that we bring personal experience to it and extrapolate it as the norm. So I really felt uncomfortable with dd's nursery, so tend to mistrust all nurseries (which perhaps isn't all that rational!)

Tiramissu - parents do have an "emotional" share in the nursery though.

The experience as a worker vs customer I'm sure is very different - 90% of parents have great nurseries, whereas most workers have worked in not so great nurseries.

Perhaps not rational but understandable HMC (now I've taken my fierce hat off ) Likewise I am a fan of good nursery care - there's three words there not one!

YABU.I also do supply work and have worked in a different nurseries and none of them have benlike you describe.

willow,
your last sentence says it all very well

Up until very recently, advice on childcare done at home by the baby's mother involved a lot of non-hugging, non-cuddling, enforced nap and feeding schedules and leaving the baby to cry. Babies used to be routinely put in their prams and parked down the end of the garden for hours at a time. If this was that harmful to babies, well, humanity would be about extinct by now.
With regard to nursery workers: yes, they are all underpaid. Like most service and 'caring' jobs, it's percieved as 'women's work' which women are supposed to do for free, or if not for free, for pocket money. It's actually quite surprising that the vast majority of women in low-paid, undervalued professions work as hard and care as much as they do. The undervaluing of women, the perception of them as service appliances, is what's really wrong in the world.

Goodomen - your apology is a bit too fucking late IMO

Some of us choose a nursery because we have NO back up for when a CM is on the sick or on holiday.

I agree with the others - if you'd seen this behaviour you should have reported it.

My son's nursery is fantastic, his room workers love him to bit, understand his personality,likes and dislikes and one thing I've always noticed is that he always comes home smelling of feminine fragrances (perfume/bodysprays) - because he gets so many cuddles from the staff! He cries a little when I leave him, but I can spy on him after I've left him and he is always happily playing with the toys or having a cuddle.
The other day he was falling asleep during his lunch (was refusing it) so they put him down for a nap and gave him his lunch when he woke up an hour and half later and he wolfed it. This does not strike me as forcing a child into their routine.

BouncingTurtle

"always comes home smelling of feminine fragrances"

Same experience with our DS2 including the happily playing with toys part.

We did take our DS1 out of a nursery where he was happy to begin with but as he got older the quality of service fell.

Word of mouth reputation is key in deciding about nurseries.

Desi Just wondered why you felt that boys were especially unsuitable for nursery care?

I have been very lucky and been able to be a SAHM, and the fear that the OPs scenario is true was what fueled my decision tbh. I just hope that this is not true - it can't be. I think the OPs post was provocative and i'll thought out, and i dont really care if she has posted before, it can still be a troll.

Solidgold - that is a brilliant post/

My DD loves her nursery and has done since she has been there from an early age.
I've also volunteered in our nursery, and the atmosphere is lovely, the babies and children are soo happy. they never have the same nap time, generally if they are tired you put them down (only if they are tired) regarding feeding, its rota'd on bottle feeding, and its one between 2, so you spoon feed both at the same time, so no-one has to wait.

I'll def be sending my next one there.

YANBU to have your opinions, I share alot of them and took my DD1 out of group nursery. I would always choose a childminder if I had to work, even though it seems there are few good ones near me.

It happens - not always, not often, but it happens.

It also happens at childminders. not always, not often but it happens. (I strongly suspect my son, who went to a childminder for a short time as a toddler, was slapped by her. I don't think that all childminders slap because she did.)

And some parents are not good either...

I think, op, that you need to report your concerns about the specific nurseries that you have been to, that are operating like this. You can't say every nursery is like this because the truth is that you just don't know that. You can only say that X, Y, Z nurseries are like that because you have seen them.

I had bad experience putting dd1 in nursery 3 yrs ago and tbh the nursery turned out to be very like the ones OP describes (I turned up unannounced on a couple of occassions during the day and was appalled at what I found). However all nurseries are NOT like this, after 3 wks of my dd being in this nursery we took her out and looked at others and we found a couple of lovely nurseries which I would have been very happy with and have friends who do so with no problems. In reply to those who ask how a baby can ever be held all the time I refer you to one baby room I visited which had a rocking chair in it where the ladies who worked there would take turns to sit in it and hold babies who needed to be held.

I would like to stick up for childminders here though as well. We have the most wonderful childminder whom my dd adores and dd2 will be going to her when I return to work. My dd1 was a very clingy baby and cm dealt with it by holding her as much as she needed or having her in a sling. Like nurseries I'm sure there are bad cm's out there too but there are lots who genuinely love children and work very hard to ensure that they have a set up which is as close to being in a home environment as possible for the children. One of the big problems with childminding is that it is dying out as so many people only consider nurseries when looking for childcare - we only considered this option when suggested to us and initially we were nervous about it.

It all comes down to the people who are looking after our children, if they like their work and feel valued they will perform their job well. The nursery where I had my bad experience was staffed by women who where either unsuited to the work or who had become so jaded over the years that they weren't interested in the kids anymore.

When we choose childcare we all do the best we can for our kids and it's really unhelpful whenever reports come out telling us that we are doing wrong by our children by putting them in childcare.

this thread is awful... its like the one we had a few months ago that ran and ran except the op there was saying that cms were awful,

I said then and I will say it now .. a mother knows (even when their dc cant yet speak) if their dc is unhappy.

Each mother makes the best decision she can for her child.

Yes it would be nice not to have to trust my precious son to anyone else but the fact is I have bills to pay. And having done my homework before deciding where to leave my ds I know he is happy and the days he is there he is doing things and gaining skills he doesnt get when its just him and me

everyone is entitled to their opinion on nurseries but please dont make it sound like those of us who use nurseries have left our child with the devil

I have to admit that I am with the OP on this. I think the idea of nurseries for young babies is awful. TBH I had no idea until recently that people left young babies at nurseries i.e under a year. Given the cost of nurseries I cannot see how it is possibly worth it. It is beyond me how PARENTS (mums and dads as there is no reason dad can't be primary carer)can have a baby and then put the child in a nursery at 6 months so they barely see them. IMO it is wrong and the primary carer for children 18 months and under should be a parent.

i agree with everything Frasermum has said

DS's nursery is amazing - he went from 6 months and was so well cared for

he had one key worker who LOVED him and took great care of him - he slept when he needed to and was fed when HE was hungry

of course, there are bad nurseries, but if people have witnessed things which are not appropriate why aren't they being reported?

I agree entirely with SGB.

Not every woman in the world can, or wants to, get a part time flexi-hours pin money job as a cleaner/teacher/nurse/care assistant/child minder. Some women, heaven forbid, are the primary wage earner. Some women are working single parents.

Or are we now saying that women can't be lawyers/pilots/MPs/police officers/engineers/scietntists etc etc etc etc ad infinitum unless they undertake not to have children?

(Actually I'm perfectly well aware that is exactly what Desiderata thinks)

londonone ..

who are you to sit on judgement on me or any other parent ???

By all means, debate whether the level of care in nurseries is good enough/ whether a cm gives better care/whether childcare should be more cost effective/whether nursery staff should be better trained etc etc

but do not sit on judgement on me and my family choices and tell me I should be at hom with my son.

You have no idea of my circumstances or anyone else's on here .. Like I say I am a mum doing what I believe best for my child...

Londonone you really don't know peoples circumstances or reasons. Some people have no choice but to work!

OP I know plenty of bad childminders and plenty of good ones likewise with nurseries.

londonone - have you ever used childcare?