to expect to use a disabled toilet when I'm out with the pram?

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I can't use the ladies when I have my baby with me in the pram. The only thing I can do is wheel him into the disabled toilet with me. But the disabled toilets have special locks on them, which presumably disabled people have special keys for. I appreciate that they want to stop able-bodied people hogging disabled toilets but what else can I do?

I'm sure in the days people left their doors unlocked, never vetted people that worked with children and called paedophiles kiddy fiddlers people left their children outside the toilet in prams for days on end!

Obviously if I was living somewhere with no facilities, then I'd cope. If i had to wee and no toilet was around I'd go behind anything large enough to maintain some dignity. But we have got facilities.

In my case, there are 3 toilets in House of Fraser, a mens, a ladies and a disabled toilet (there is a changing room with no toilet), I couldn't fit my Phil and Teds ( a biggish pushchair, which I bought because my dd1 was 14 months when dd2 was born, and whilst if I was living in a country without Phil & Teds i would have coped, I saw one cheap on e-bay and thought' 'what the heck') into the ladies. I didn't fancy the options that presented themselves to me, ie wake up dd2, who had just fallen asleep, leave her in the care of the complete stranger who offered to watch her whilst i went to the loo, or leave the door open (the door opens onto the shop floor, and the man who had made the offer to watch dd2). So I asked a passing member of staff if they had any other toilets, and I was told to use the disabled toilet.

I really don't think that this is that out of order.

Saying the whole what did our mothers do isn't a real argument.

The world has moved on since then in many ways i doubt any of us parent in the same manner as our parents/grandparents/greatgrandparents. They didn't have tampons or sanitary towels back in the day but they coped, i would find it hard to and wouldn't go back to not using them because its possible! IYSWIM.

And if i'm able to pee with-out leaving my child out of my sight then i will use that facility. I do not abuse it. I hate public toilets and rarely use them where possible. I would never prioratise my dicomfort over a disabled person. I have never had a disabled person waiting to use the facilities but like i said i have had another mother.

What about asking the member of staff to watch your baby?

A lot of these responses make the humans on Wall-E seem a lot more believable.

The point is that none of us should have to struggle surely? Is that really too much to ask? Sainsbury manages to have a baby changing room (which is bloody enormous) with a loo in it. John Lewis manages to have parent and child toilets. As do Ikea. And funnily enough (as far as I know) these are retailers which actually aren't doing too badly right now).

I don't want women to have to change their mooncup while a curious toddler is pressed against their leg. I don't think it's especially healthy

To be fair though we can't always know whether we'd be delaying a disabled person. The mother waiting outside for you might be a diabetic needing somewhere to inject insulin without someone thinking she's a junkie and needs a clean surface to put stuff down upon; or have a colostomy bag you can't see; or have an ASD child who needs extra support and attention to get them to use the toilet despite not having mobility difficulties.

As he didn't offer to watch her, I think that he, might have just said to use the disabled toilet.

Thingingfast..... Mu Mum has bougth upthe subject of.. we had big prams. Yes she did and I would be sat on a seat as my brother nesstle in the pram, she would walk down to the local shops where all she needed was on the high street ans walk back calling at a relative or too before heading home.

I think may of us lead different lives now, many of us living miles away from family. I live in a lovely little town but only basic shopping facilites available. Any serious shopping has to be done in the bigger towns up to 25 miles away. My sons two classes are 7 miles away and 15 miles away, I bet my Mum never had need of a loo while out with the pram.

I'm sure caveman just parked his pram infront of a bush

'your baby' sinkingfast? And my toddler, who runs off and is terrified of people he doesn't know?

It's a solution, yes. But it still isn't the civilised one.

The OP said:

"I can't use the ladies when I have my baby with me in the pram."

There is no way any of our mothers would have said anything quite so weedy and defeatist, so therefore I do think it's valid to ask what they would have done and how they would have coped (and you could even ask them how they would cope now - the answers could be enlightening )

Staff member to watch the baby and you take the toddler with you - sorted!

Public toilets are in decline in every town and city centre in the UK bar a few very progressive councils. More and more commercial settings respond by removing their own facilities from public use. There are far fewer toilets for women than men, despite almost all ages of women needing cubicle use and taking longer.

Sure, we could just lift our skirts and piss in the gutter. And use the men's. In fact one toilet campaign strategy is to convert many women's toilets to have women's urinals which are quicker to use. With frosted glass screens but open.

This would be one solution - free up space for larger cubicle needers such as parents with small kids in tow, and disabled people.

But nobody would use them would they?

I think we all agree that the OP was outrageous. I think you should have to be on DLA or something to get a radar key - not send off 4 quid. I can't believe anyone would seriously contemplate doing that and I'd be the first to kick them in the shins. But it's a shit situation for all of us and like I keep saying (and thankfully for you all even I am bored by the sound of my voice) we shouldn't have to put up with it. Any of us.

I should have added with a pram, another mother with a pram.

To be honest this is a pointless argument those of us who have use disabled toilets to house our children whilst we pee will continue to do so. Those who haven't and never will, will continue to think we are selfish twats, who value our childrens safety way too high (we must be insane) or should try and cram two toddlers and a baby in a cubicle with us, or just maybe not go out with our children if we can't cope.

I highly doubt concils will start sprining up mother and baby facilities with added toilets, they would just suggest we use the disabled/changing facilties.

I have a side by side twin buggy. I can't fit through the doors in our local morrison's ladies loos. They have two doors which are at a strange angle to each other. I use the disabled loo. They should do more family loos like Ikea.

What my mother would have said is 'the personal is political' and so how women piss and change their sanitary stuff is a political issue. And she would have said mothers with young children and campaigners for inclusive access for disabled people (and older people who are not necessarily registered disabled but have more complex toilet needs) should all get together and fight their battles with the real enemy instead of standing back judging each other hands on hips.

But hey.

damn keys keep sticking leaving me with loads of typos. right i'm off to use my own private loo, i really need a wee

ohyes cos when you are caring for a disabled person 24/7 you hav ethe time

Sorry Sinkingfast, but the member of staff didn't offer, probably because there was an empty toilet, which I could use, albeit a disabled one.

I haven't seen Wall-e so I don't get your other comment.

I asked my mum, she told me a hair raising story about leaving my sister in her pram outside a shop and forgetting that she had left her there, only remembering when she got home. Otherwise she said that she didn't go many places with us when we were little, as public transport was too difficult with a pram. (wuss!)

I agree with Wilself and it would be far preferable to see women working together to get better facilities for people with buggies. Rather than sending off for radar keys they arenot entitled to, anyway! And agree with 2Shoes - if able-bodied buggy-pushers spent some time campaigning (as the hugely active disability rights movement has done) then things for ALL women might improve!

Actually building regs should specify that someone shopuld be able to get into a cubicle with a McClaren techno or a P&Ted!

or just maybe not go out with our children if we can't cope.' what, like I have to anyway (sympathy: zilch)

It isn't without irony that the toilets in my local mothercrap aren't big enough for a buggy and that there is no toilet in the parent's room

and the disabled is a radar key one so no using that on the fly!

yes blu I agree

raar kes nly on dla orproduction of GP note I think (GP nopte to cover lots of temprary / incontinence issues that ma not warrant dla but certainly ould a disabled loo- egsevere bladder issues, ulcerative colitis crohns)

basically the same system as a blue badge (I dont get one of those despite 2 disabled kids and despite tjhinking it shit therefore I either dont gio out or park elsewhere)

hazeyjane, as yours said my DM didn't go out with us much when we were little. Grocery shopping was done in the village (which had loos then) plus my grandparents and other relatives lived there. She was too busy being a farmers wife to go into the big town during the week, when she did go to town we would be left with DF and GF, or with the grandparents if she wanted to go out with DF. TBH I don't think they went to town that often anyway. But that is a rural perspective in the 60s. (when I was little in the early 80s she didn't go out with me either because I was truly awful)