Not to let my ex see the children this Christmas

[gemmydingdongbell]

Ex hasn't been interested in or seen the children for months. He's missed birthdays, most access visits (arranged informally) doesn't phone or return calls.
However, a few days ago he has been calling frantically wanting to come for a day over Christmas (more so the day itself) to see the children saying that he has changed.
I've refused as I don't believe him and don't want him to ruin things. yet I still feel strangely guilty.
So aibu?

Hmmm. What do the kids want and need? And can he deliver that? YOu don't want to make a date and they wait around for him and maybe he doesn't show. I don't think you should use Christmas to punish him but neither do I think he has a right to mess them around.

Hmmm. What do the kids want and need? And can he deliver that? YOu don't want to make a date and they wait around for him and maybe he doesn't show. I don't think you should use Christmas to punish him but neither do I think he has a right to mess them around.

It is not up to one parent to take away those rights for the children.

So what exactly is the absent parent doing, by intermittently flitting in and out of many childrens lives only when it suits them?

It is naive to think that every child who doesnt see both parents is done out of preference for the parent in daily charge of the children

There are many of us whose sons and daughters will not be seeing the other parent over xmas because we are protecting them from being hurt any more

I think most people will agree that very few families actually use their kids as pawns to score points

Exactly Lou.
So far, all decisions regarding access/visits seem to have been made by OP's EX, not the OP herself.
He hasn't turned up, so he has decided whether or not things have gone ahead.

tinytim as a child of divorced parents whose father was pretty shite my mum did the "Watching their little faces at the window when they think he's coming only to have their world crumble around them when they realise that he is a lying cunt who can't put them first?" She did it repeatedly and, imho, it was absolutely the right thing to do. she offered my father every concievable opportunity to be my father and he, very frequently declined. but to not have given him/me those opportunities would have been wrong. it would have "sheltered" me, perhaps, "protected" me, but it would have denied me the opportunity to develop a relationship with my father on terms that were decided between father and daughter. it must be very hard for any mother or father to see this kind of heart break and to feel that they are, in some way, complicit, perhaps (by providing the opportunities for hurt to happen) and I sympathise very much. but they aren;t complicit and I feel very passionately that it is not up to one parent to stop the other one from hurting the children (with obvious exceptions - ie cases of abuse). It is down to them to be there, to comfort, to ease pain, not to stop it happening. Like findtheriver says we don;t own children and neither are we responsible for their relationship with their other parent.

And yes the op does have a say in it, she is the one who is going to be picking up the pieces and having this man in her house

Her feelings matter too as it is her xmas break as well

I wouldnt have my exh with me at xmas ever, the stress it would put on me, wondering if he would turn up drunk, will he start a row in front of the kids, will he start trying to remove things from the house etc, would spoil their day as well as mine, and why should plans be changed to accommodate one person?

my kids love their dad, but they also know he lets them down and is a drunk and a shit to me, but they still love him

as adults we have to appreciate that unconditional love isnt always appropriate, and make decisions for our children, based on what is best for them

if the father feels he would like a "family" xmas then he has to put in the effort all year round , not just when he feels like a free meal

i feel really pissed off about how the op has been made to feel bad for not wanting to enjoy xmas in peace , like she is some kind of bad person

hatwoman, there are only so any times you can see your children go through that before you ( or rather i) will say enough is enough

he does not have the right to cause that kind of hurt on them

Oh I could allow it to continue, quite easily, no problem there because he doesn't bother, at all.
I wouldn't have to do anything, just stand back and watch him not bother.
However, I would (if he bothered to ask) tell him that No, he was not seeing them Christmas Day.
My children have (as many others) spent weeks dreaming of Christmas, preparing for Christmas, and our Christmas Day is extremely busy.
For me to allow him the opportunity to see them Christmas Day then I would have to disrupt their day.
I would have to stop them doing things they have been looking forward to.
And then I would have to hang around waiting with them for him not to turn up, or would you suggest I lie to them about why we were not going to their Grandparents houses?

I told XP's mother (as she was the only one who bothered with sporadic contact ~ when there was a birthday party of someone's she could parade the children I have been bringing up) only recently, that it is not my door the blame is to be laid at, it is his.

He hasn't made the effort, and as such, it's going to take a little bit more effort than a phone call if he wants to see them.

Yes, the resident parent does have a responsibility to help the NRP have a relationship with their children, but to aid this, not manufacture it and the one person who has the real responsibility there is the NRP.

I'm sick and tired of seeing 'oh, he's their Dad, he has rights' posts. No. He doesn't.

And lastly, if I were to allow my XP to see my children Christmas Day then I would NOt be doing the best by them, but the best by him, because Dd wants nothing more to do with him and DS has no idea who the hell he is.

(I realise my post is not indicative of all NRP's and that not all RPs are the mother, I am just writing wrt the OP's situation, and my experience)

good post vs

"once parents decide for whatever reasons that they don't want to remain with the person they chose to have children with, they need to acknowledge that the children still have a right to continue to see both parents.

It is not up to one parent to take away those rights for the children."

But that's exactly what the OP's ex has done. He's taken away his children's right to see him. Funnily enough, that's what my XP has done as well. No court in the land will hold them accountable.

Nobody is arguing that this man should never be allowed to see his kids again. They are simply saying that he doesn't have the right to turn up at Christmas a) because children are for life, not just for christmas (good one!) and b) the OP has the right to make arrangements for christmas without involving him because he hasn't been involved all year and c) the children don't want him there. This is about their rights, not his.

I would offer him tea on boxing day (and not tell them - expectation management etc.). I suspect he will not turn up, because being alone on boxing day is not as socially unacceptable as being alone on christmas day and chances are the only reason he wants to come on Christmas day is because he hasn't had a better offer and he can pretend to himself that he's being the Good Father. However, if he has changed as much as he says he has, he will accept that boxing day can be the start of him committing to see his children regularly on their terms, not his, so that by next christmas he has re-built the trust with them so that he can see them then if that's what they want.

'He's taken away his children's right to see him'

'This is about their rights, not his.'

• Two contradictory statements. If it's about the children's rights, then neither parent can, or should, try to take these away.

How is that contradictory?

It is about the children's rights and by not turning up on arranged visits he has taken away their right to see him.

What he cannot do, however, i take away their right to make judgements based on his behaviour, and it sounds like the OP's children have made that judgement.

I'm not sure how much you can use the idea of rights whether children's or otherwise. I think it is for children's benefit to have the best possible relationship they can with with both parents. But some parents are crap. I think the OP should create the bset life (including Christmas Day) she can for her children. And that might mean managing their expectations of their father's reliability. OP, sorry you are having to deal with this. It sounds awful.

How exactly are those statements contradictory?

Also, why do you all think that his relationship with his children will be irreparably damaged if he doesn't see them on Christmas day?

Do you honestly think that seeing them on boxing day, followed by a consistent and reliable schedule of contact in the new year, is less valuable than seeing them against their wishes on Christmas day, never to see him again until he can be arsed?

I know which type of contact I think is more in the children's interests.

I don't think that, LJB. I think consistent, responsible mature behaviour is the thing to aim for. But I do know that I would find it next to unbearable not to see my children at Christmas. But then I couldn't stand not seeing them every day for the rest of the year. It sounds as if this man is an arse. And how you deal with such men is always going to be hard.

This is a hard one for me, because I've been on both sides of the fence.

DH was terribly hurt over access arrangements (ex ceased contact for four months because new boyfriend insisted they could only proceed with no 'ties') to the end that once court proceedings had finally reinstated contact, DSD (4, at the time) threw herself on the ground screaming 'Bring the police, it's Daddy, help me' - ex since had the grace to apologise and things have moved on.

So, emotionally, I have a foot in the camp of absent fathers who don't want to be absent.

However, my sisters experiences with her manipulative loser ex leave me wondering as to whether contact at all costs is the best thing...

I think, if in your heart of heart of hearts, you can confirm to yourself that your childrens wish not to see their father stems from themselves and their experiences, then you should respect that. If not, you should respect the sanctity of your own home and offer him a couple of hours with them down the park on Boxing Day, not in your home, that's not his right, and anyone without a fully mutual split behind them would never agree to it.

Phew.

snigger, I grew up in a home where my step-brother was unable to see my step-father (his dad) because of his mother stopping access and spent many a day sat outside the court waiting for yet another order to be granted so too am aware how hard it can be for a NRP.

Sadly, in many circumstances (including what the OP has described) it's not down to access not being allowed, but not taken, and IMO when that is the case then a NRP cannot expect to dictate when they see the child, be it Christmas Birthday or the fifth sunday following the England match.

Honestly, there is so much difference between a man who wants to see his children regularly, who will make proper arrangements, who will stick to them and make the effort to ensure that his contact time with his children is all about maintaining a relationship with them, and the sort of father the OP is talking about who only wants contact when it suits him because it's all about him, not about his DC's. It's an insult to most non-resident fathers to put them in the same bracket as the OP's ex. They are an entirely different entity.

I totally agree, LJB.

And me.

FWIW, I tried everything for the first year or so XP&I were split, everything.
When I got with my current partner I made it clear where my loyalties lie, and that was with my children. My DP even used to drive almost 70 mile round trip to take the children to their father's, who would text us twenty minutes before they were meant to be dropped off to say eh was 'working away' (i.e. in the pub).
One parent can only do all the running around for so long and then, IMO, it's their duty to allow the child to see the other parent for what they really are, why prolong the agony and pretend it's a fairytale.

agree with ljb as well

YA NOTNOTNOTNOT BU

i would offer an hour or two on boxing day.

i would argue that covering up for any adult behaving irresponsibly is a form of enabling.

in other words- you would enable his crappy behaviour and encourage it to continue by rewarding it. doesn't mean you should slag him off to your children- just don't support or reward it with the kind of access that someone who behaves responsibly gets.

it's his decision to consistently let down his children and this is the consequence of that decision.

it's called being an adult.