To be so sick of anyone who earns a 'decent' wage being demonised by those who don't?

[sickofthis]

OK, I am very probably REALLY going to regret this, but it is getting to me, the number of threads at the moment that seem to think if anyone earns a decent wage (over £50K) they are somehow responsible for the downfall of the economy and are greedy etc.,

It's cobblers.

The truth of the matter is the housing market has grown too far too fast and too many people have borrowed beyond their means on the back of thier houses (which now aren't worth what they thought they were)

Yes, some banks took too many risks and are paying the price but this does not mean ALL bankers are greedy, horrid people. Just like all property developers (who, by the way, have made lots of money from the property boom) aren't either.

But, some people took far too many personal risks to buy material stuff they didn't need. That makes them JUST as culpable.

The housing market needs to cool off. When ordinary good people can't buy a reasonable house, there is something wrong with the pricing strategy and, one way or another, it's going to be corrected.

Diploma in tattooing and percing...

Actually, I'm not going to joke, I bet that one exists...

League tables give information to uninformed parents but it isn't necessarily the right information, or the information they should be seeking out. The surface academic record of the school is easily manipulated and not the best indicator for everyone. What about value added? The school's "ethos" and behaviour? System of discipline and ant-bullying policy? What are they like at music, sport and drama? Etc.

I'm probably amongst the poorest of MNers, but I don't think rich MNers are demonised.

WHEN they complain, they are encouraged to live wihtin their means, by people who know for a FACT that it is possible to live happily on an awful lot less. That is not being demonised.

Yes, but the top 20 schools in the country are all good at just about everything (if you have a bright child) so then league tables are useful and parents can visit and keep their ear to the ground to see if behaviour is bad and also check things like numbers into oxbridge or on to the dole etc. Leagues tables are just useful additional information

But most people will not be choosing one of the top 20 schools in the country. Most people will be looking at the 10-30 or so secondary schools in their own local education authority. And on that kind of level, data is easy to manipulate and very misleading.

what a suprise xenia doesnt answer a direct question as per usual.

What is the direct question? Put it on here and I will answer it.

Would it not depend whether one has been/will be made redundant this month?
Then, earning a 'decent' wage doesn't mean anything any longer .

This is ridic - Whenever anyone earns a cetai level of income they acquire a certain standard of living - and to what extent depends on the family. I am fed up of people being demonised too - whatever 'hits' any family takes is RELANTIVE to their situation and everyone is making cutbacks. I think it is unfair to demonise people who worked hard and did their jobs.

This topic is always going to get peoples backs up no matter what the state of the economy - it beggars a deeper questions

1. should we be communists?
2. do you believe in survival of the fittest in terms of free mkaret economics
3. benefits? - where do they sensibly fit in?
4. or should we all be thinking about 'poverty' - what does this mean to YOU?

I know I count my blessings - I did while back and I do now

OP - I am HAPPY for people who earn a good deal more than me, and sorry ifanyone is findng life a struggle atm, for whatever reason.

But I am SICK of you, and anyone else who feels sorry for themselves on the grounds that you appear to in your second post "and now they are faced with an extra 5% tax to pay for others who don't work so hard." and all the assumptions therein. What an ignorant stupid load of old cock you write. Rich people have it worse because they are 'expected' to live a certan lifestyle, indeed. Other people don't 'work so hard'.

It isn't income that makes people obnoxious, it's attitude.

Oh bollocks - I didnt realise it had rubn to 9 pages sorry but I responded to OP

and back to the OP, people earning less than 50k can save money and not get into debt, i.e. be responsible with money, you know!

However I do agree that's frightening when people who have 20k+ debt blame the 'banks'.

Sad but if you've seen in the shops recently you'd have seen that people are still shopping like there's no tomorrow..

We'd all love to know which career starts with a £60k salary so we can ensure our daughters train for it too and never have to do house work.

katie just asked the question xenia, as have i and others

wheredowegofromhere, look around at who's shopping like there's no tomorrow, it isn't 30 somethings I know that for sure. Every single one of our friends, all went to Uni, had £50k plus jobs last month have been made redundant, 19 families in total all in the space of 6 weeks.

So now the tides gone out we'll see who's been swimming with no knickers on.

OP - Take a leaf out of Xenia's book - she does not whinge in self-pity.

Oh f__k it I have a lot of debt but dont worry too much we solvent overall - ie assets are greater than debts but if we were all like zenia we would have slaves to post on MN for us and be starring in episodes of 'ultra women' every week. Ther is more to life than work and money like health?

erm family, erm friends, erm free digital tv erm, helping others, erm having fun, erm not thinking about what you havnt got

Kattie, I'm not sure that the people I saw shopping today were solvent, not that's any of my business, but some were absolutely in a 'F it it's xmas, I need to get some presents' mood. And banks are still giving credit cards away, albeit the interest have gone sky high.

And yes unfortunately, people who were in debts already are going to suffer most. But, we're all going to feel the pinch.

Oh you know what? You get out of this life what you put in. I see no reason why any very hard working person cannot put themselves in a position to earn a reasonable salary and they should be congratulated for it. All walks of life and skill sectors have an option. Bin man, cleaner, lawyer, doctor or scrounger. You put yourself where you want to be. Slate me if you like but what is all the namby pamby stress about really. When you think about it. Going without is anyone's choice and right. As is earning your own. As long as we all give love, care and respect to our children. Along with a good sense of right and wrong we should all be able to muddle along together. Random? Maybe? Truthful? Absolutely.

wheredowego - its personal of those people where solvent however we have cut right back knowing we are solevetn but owe money to credit cards. I do not take fr granted the level of income we have and spend carefully I think everyone is responsible for their own borrowing -you all knoew what you could afford to take on - the exception being people who could NOT IN ANYWAY have foreseen the possible risk to their jobs.

DH and I didnt have much when growing up and have excelled by comparison but do not take this for granted and are prepared to take 'the hit' if it arises - and I am taling about DH losing job in financial sector - we have talked about what we would do.

if any moaners who oringinal OP refers to suddenly found themselves in that position they wouldnt be giving their money away

My perception is that I get paid well because I work hard and have worked hard since the age of around 13. Good exam results led to a good degree led to a good professional qualification led to a good job led to good working opportunities etc.

I do believe that I work far harder than the average worker and have done so consistently therefore I feel that in some way I deserve my income.

I have not been greedy, I have not mortgaged to the hilt, I have not bought expensive and unnecessary luxuries and I absolutely am not responsible for the downturn in the economy. I think the economic situation is a product of (a) irresponsible borrowers (b) irresponsible lenders and (c) insufficient governmental regulation.

I know people who are on the minimum wage who work incredibly hard, and others on the same wage who shirk. I know people who earn pots of money who work bloody hard for it, and others who just coast along. There is NOT a direct correlation between how hard you work and how much money you earn!!! I admit that hard-working people tend to do better in their career, but it is not the same as saying/implying that well-paid people work harder than the poorly-paid.

I agree that you can get good value for money with employees or bad. There are elements of luck as well. But in general if you work hard you are far far more likely to succeed than if you do not.

We all knew the bubble was going to burst, but it kept going on and on for so long that some people really paid silly amount of money for their property and are in negative equity.
Yes, there's a part of personal responsibility but no one cannot say the mortgage lenders/government (whoever thought that having a 110% mortgage was a good idea?) were not responsible.

It doesn't really matter who's fault it is now, lots of us have or are going to lose their jobs.

Quatt- I do think luck has some part to play though.
Lucky to be born clever, healthy and with nice parents.
But if everything else is equal I do think graft pays off.
These days it's not the cocky little wankers who talk the talk that get the partnerships but the ones bringing in the dosh.
It's no co incidence that this morning when most families are eating a fry up together my DH is in the arse end of a former soviet country drafting contacts for satelite TV.
And I see it all the time in my work as a writer. Folk who love the craft, are fabulous at the craft, probably better then I'll ever be, but they won't just park their arse and get on with it. Or they can't get past the constant rejection. Or they won't do the PR.
I tell my kids everyday that hard work pays off and I fully beieve it.