To be so sick of anyone who earns a 'decent' wage being demonised by those who don't?

[sickofthis]

OK, I am very probably REALLY going to regret this, but it is getting to me, the number of threads at the moment that seem to think if anyone earns a decent wage (over £50K) they are somehow responsible for the downfall of the economy and are greedy etc.,

It's cobblers.

The truth of the matter is the housing market has grown too far too fast and too many people have borrowed beyond their means on the back of thier houses (which now aren't worth what they thought they were)

Yes, some banks took too many risks and are paying the price but this does not mean ALL bankers are greedy, horrid people. Just like all property developers (who, by the way, have made lots of money from the property boom) aren't either.

But, some people took far too many personal risks to buy material stuff they didn't need. That makes them JUST as culpable.

The housing market needs to cool off. When ordinary good people can't buy a reasonable house, there is something wrong with the pricing strategy and, one way or another, it's going to be corrected.

I agree that alot of success is luck and the natural advantages some people are born with. Having good looks and charm can get you a long way. But I struggle to condemn that - after all athletes are praised for using their god given physical talents to get ahead so why shouldnt that apply in other spheres?

It is true that in law firms (and life) if there are 2 candidates equally able but one has a "face that fits" ie likeability they will get ahead/make partnership. Think thats how it always will be.

Interesting posts everyone.

I feel I should add that I do believe in hard work, in the sense that it makes people more resilient, and improves the chances of their lifestyle being sustainable. But it's very unfair to blame people exclusively when they've tried to improve their lot, but external events have overtaken them despite their best efforts.

That's why I am pleased I don't live in the US, because I like the idea of a social welfare safety net being there for such eventualities. In the US two or three generations of hard work and associated capital can be wiped out as a result of, for example, a hit and run driving accident where the victim is not at fault. That's not what I call a meritocracy.

There but for the grace of God go we all particularly in these recessionary times. Of course it isn't always people's faults they fall on hard times. However some people decide to write novels or paint and have a family and whether they are male or female they are by making that choice often condemning the family to poverty and I'm not sure how responsible those types of decisions are.

I suspect my daughters have chosen the career they have simply because of intellectual interest as much as the pay actually. The nice thing is that some of the better well paid jobs are actually pretty interesting. The psychiatrists in my family don't only just make a good living but they also really enjoy the work they do, the mind etc I remember often talking to my father about it. So it's not true that you either go for lovely but low paid jobs or high paid but dull as ditch water jobs. Often higher paid ones are more intellectually interesting anyway.

Xenia on Tue 09-Dec-08 08:50:07
"There but for the grace of God go we all particularly in these recessionary times. Of course it isn't always people's faults they fall on hard times. However some people decide to write novels or paint and have a family and whether they are male or female they are by making that choice often condemning the family to poverty and I'm not sure how responsible those types of decisions are."

That would depend on whether you feel financial ease is an absolute prerequisite for human happiness, or whether there might be situations where other factors can compensate.

We were not particularly well off when I grew up, but my parents' evident joy in what they were doing (and their having plenty of time to share it with us) was one of the things that made my childhood magic. I don't think I would have been happier if we had been better off.

Anyway, somebody has to do the less well paid jobs. Surely the world only needs so many psychiatrists? If 50 million British people recognised this as the career choice, it still wouldn't mean they could all get to do it.

If it's all you've known it's fine but I feel sorrier for those or husbands who thought they'd married someone who would earn £50k and then he or she gives it up to earn £8k writing poetry. It's a kind of change to the agreed deal. Children brought up without much money can indeed be just as happy as those without although if you're constantly over stretched for money, in fuel poverty etc then I think it does make life harder.

There is a rather unappealing lack of economic realism in picking "poet" as your career. I actually stopped using a babysitter who claimed to be first and foremost a poet (the childcare was to make ends meet) because her head was so far up in the clouds that I really didn't feel safe leaving my children with her.

Anna8888 I don't think a writer or poet picks writer/poet as a career. I think they just are. You are a philistine.

I bet Michael Rosen earns a lot more than my DP.
or me.

Anna8888 on Tue 09-Dec-08 14:24:10
"There is a rather unappealing lack of economic realism in picking "poet" as your career."

Would you say Medieval Latinist is better?

and that twat Ian McMillan.

Xenia you are hilarious. Personally I would feel a lot sorrier for someone who saw their partner's worth in terms of their earning capacity. What kind of a wretched dead-eyed romance is that?

Yes, but if you've got used to a certain standard of living and then your partner says I'm going to paint or sit at home finding myself it is a bit of a bad deal for the other half. I never resented my ex husband following his art etc when we were married of course but that was because that was how it was when we got married. It's the change which is hard on people. The career woman on £50k who you are sure will always work when she has chilren because she said so and then gives it up so the family is no the husbamd's £30k a year not £80k or the husband who seems to love his work as a doctor who decides it's too stressful and buys a vineyard which never makes money and the family's living on the secretary's wife's £25k a year earnings etc.

I think Xenia has a point, actually. A lot in life is about expectations. If you're a Latinist marrying an archaeologist, you sort of expect that things might be a bit tight and that it might be a good idea to start reading up on cheap soup recipes in good time before the wedding. Doesn't necessarily mean you will have a less happy or less fulfilling life than somebody who marries a billionaire. Or more happy or fulfilling, for that matter. Different, no doubt, but then isn't flexibility the secret to a successful life?

One of the hardest aspects of very long term relationships for many people is adapting to changes in their partner - the sex kitten (or whatever the male equivalent is) who becomes asexual, the skinny fit chap/woman who becomes 18 stone and can hardly walk up the stairs, the successful thrusting executive who has a mid life crisis and wants to talk to trees and give up work etc

True. This is one of the great challenges of longterm relationships. And challenges of course are what makes life rewarding

(how would I cope if dh suddenly got a high-paid job?...wanders off musing)

And you can also find it hard when a partner doesn't evolve and carries on living as if he/she were 25 and free of all responsibility even though he/she is now 40 and loaded down with mortgage and children.

This is also very true. Or refuses to strike out for adventure, but wants life to jog along in exactly the same way as it has done for the last 30 years. There are all sorts of possible permutations. But good communication is surely the key to them all.

H is exactly as you describe, Anna.

When I met dh he was earning a high wage. He is now working for himself and his current annual income is £7K. Admittedly it has taken some adjusting to, but it is an infinitely less disruptive adjustment than almost any other change I can think of, because he wanted to do it and is therefore happier. If our income had dropped by that much and he was more miserable (e.g. redundancy) that would be stratospherically hard.

If I care about the money i will go and earn it myself. What was feminism for if not to unshackle people who, for whatever reason, feel they don't want to do whatever it takes to earn large amounts of money?

I think good communication is critical. But, unfortunately, even excellent communication doesn't enable all marriages to survive. Sometimes the two partners in a relationship just want different and incompatible things out of life.

I think our core beliefs remain pretty much the same from childhood/teens to grave. A change of employment or salary is not a fundamental change to personality. For example, I doubt a successful, hard-nosed lawyer who is very materialistic is suddenly going to want to work with damaged teenagers for not much pay. But a successful lawyer with a desire to help disadvantaged teenagers is a very real possibility. He/she might have accepted that it was sensible to pursue his legal career until he felt sufficiently economically cushioned to be able to do something he really wanted to do rather than just for the filthy lucre. If he has married a woman who can't accept the change in circumstances then she has married him for his money rather than for the person he really is.

I'm most shocked at Xenia's inconsistency - as surely the disgruntled wife who is having to downgrade her standard of living (because her husband is pursuing his dream to write poetry) should go and earn her own money? I'm not shocked by Anna8888 as she seems to run her life like an efficient machine; taking care only to keep it well-oiled and dust-free but not interested in what the machine is actually for.

I'd be delighted if my Management Consultant DP said he really wanted to run a vineyard, study English literature, study horticulture. Life is really rather limiting and joyless if your sole purpose in life is to earn as much money as possible.

My core beliefs have evolved hugely from when I was a child/teenager. Is that because I have done many things with my life and had a lot of mind-changing experiences? I don't know. But the people I know whose core beliefs haven't changed during their adult lives (ie since they left their parents) are dull... almost brain dead even, by their early forties, surviving rather than living.

Oh dear. I'm not sure my core beliefs have changed that much.

My brother on the other hand went from being a young conservative when he left school to a social democrat when he was bringing up a young family, then a more moderate conservative now they're leaving home and he wants to enjoy his money; no doubt by the time he comes round to worrying about his pension and the old people's home he'll be a socialist again. Oh well, at least there's one member of my family who's not brain dead then

I was being sexually neutral about the disgruntled wife/husband. It's as much a probllem if the husband thought he had married high earning career woman who always promised him she'd carry on working when they had children and then she won't and he loved her in part for her ambition and hard work and success which made her the person she is, just like I am a bit put off men who are retired early because some of them just have so very little in their lives that they are not as interesting (not all of course ).

Xenia, Yes, I was also being gender neutral, but was using a high earning man, being the most prevalent occurence.

Anna8888 - Perhaps you were a charming child?

What if you didn't buy material stuff, didn't overstretch yourself but don't earn £50k?

And, why is £50k a decent wage? IMO it's how you earn it that determines whether it is decent or not!